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From: Martin Harran <martinharran@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Evolutionary creationism
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 13:23:10 +0000
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On Wed, 12 Mar 2025 11:43:35 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 3/12/2025 8:25 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 13:06:43 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/11/2025 12:21 PM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2025 09:21:24 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/11/2025 5:06 AM, Martin Harran wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 17:20:56 -0500, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are still not abiding by
>>>>>>> Saint Augustine's admonishment about not using the Bible to make claims
>>>>>>> about what we can determine for ourselves about nature, so my guess is
>>>>>>> that their efforts can still fail to represent nature accurately
>>>>>>> depending on how consistent with the Bible that they want to be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are NOT in any way contradicting Saint Augustine's admonishment,
>>>>>> they are following it perfectly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think differently then like MarkE, you haven't properly grasped
>>>>>> the meaning of what St Augustine meant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They are trying to force biological evolution into conforming with their
>>>>> Biblical interpretation.  As such what are they missing about biological
>>>>> evolution?  Some of them are denying that natural mechanisms were
>>>>> involved in some of that evolution.
>>>>
>>>> Please give an example of that.
>> ?
>> 
>>>
>>> You SNIPed it out.

>> 
>> There is nothing in what I snipped that shows anyone denying that
>> natural mechanisms were involved in evolution. On the contrary, as
>> quoted by you from their website, they define one of their core values
>> as affirming the established findings of modern science. Are you
>> calling them liars?
>
>That obviously is not true.  Did you actually read what you snipped out? 
>  What were their other core values?  


Here is exactly what you posted from their site earlier::

====================================

QUOTE:
Evolutionary Creation (EC) is a Christian position on origins. It
takes 
the Bible seriously as the inspired and authoritative word of God, and
it takes science seriously as a way of understanding the world God has
made. EC includes two basic ideas. First, that God created all things,
including human beings in his own image. Second, that evolution is the
best scientific explanation we currently have for the diversity and 
similarities of all life on Earth.
END QUOTE:

QUOTE:
The Identity of BioLogos
Core Values
Christ-centered Faith - We embrace the historical Christian faith, 
upholding the authority and inspiration of the Bible.

Rigorous Science - We affirm the established findings of modern
science, 
celebrating the wonders of God's creation.

Gracious Dialogue - We strive for humble and thoughtful dialogue with 
those who hold other views, speaking the truth in love.
END QUOTE:

===============================================

Where in that are they are denying that natural mechanisms were
involved in some of that evolution?

>They obviously have other feelings 
>about what are not "established findings of modern science."  

So what does it matter what they think about things outside of
science, how is that contradicting science?

>Not only 
>that, but as I indicated there are somethings about evolution that have 
>not been established because they claim to be tweekers like Behe, and 
>their god has been tweeking things in order to make humans into his own 
>image.

I'm still waiting for an example of those tweekers. And why do you
keep bringing Behe into it? He has nothing to do with Biologos or they
with him. They actually have a lengthy article about his "Darwin's
Black Box" book where they go through his arguments one by one and
show how they don't stand up.

https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-can-evolution-account-for-the-complexity-of-life-on-earth-today



>
>> 
>> 
>>> The example was in their description of what they
>>> believed.  They believe that the Bible is the "inspired and
>>> authroitative word of God" and "First, that God created all things,
>>> including human beings in his own image.".  You have to read their web
>>> site to learn that some of them are tweekers that claim that their god
>>> was involved in guiding the evolution of life on earth.
>> 
>> I have read their web site and I see nothing anywhere about forcing
>> biological evolution into conforming with their
>> Biblical interpretation. Feel free to point it out if I have missed
>> it.
>
>You must have missed the part about tweekers,

It's a big site and I can't find anything about tweekers. Please quote
what they actually say or at least point me to the actual part of the
site where they say it.

> and the claims that their 
>god evolved humans in his own image.

How does that contradict science?


>
>Ron Okimoto
>> 
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That is exactly what Saint
>>>>> Augustine warned against doing.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is just the next stage of science denial that some of them will use
>>>>> their acceptance of some of the science to cover up.
>>>>
>>>> That is pure conjecture on your part.
>>>
>>> It is what some of them are already doing.  Some have given up on the
>>> science denial, but some are still looking for what they need to fit
>>> their god into what has happened in nature.
>>>
>>> If they had given up on the science denial that Saint Ausgustine warned
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========