Path: ...!news.snarked.org!tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net!news.quux.org!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tomyee3@gmail.com (ProkaryoticCaspaseHomolog)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Weakness in the results of the three tests of GR shown in rhe lasr
 century,.
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 08:13:09 +0000
Organization: novaBBS
Message-ID: <83224561f48101ccdde65215817f0508@www.novabbs.com>
References: <52e47bd51177fb5ca4e51c4c255be1a6@www.novabbs.com> <26ec5dc08548f7ca167c178333b2009d@www.novabbs.com> <9ee53574f9a20a5a9d9ed159d5c474b3@www.novabbs.com> <f9f73c8dd7970dacb7ac095847095d8b@www.novabbs.com> <02a3ec2d6e0227716a14f854e64b8a27@www.novabbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary="------------671f478f8dfae8.50667972"
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="4015882"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="Ooch2ht+q3xfrepY75FKkEEx2SPWDQTvfft66HacveI";
User-Agent: Rocksolid Light
X-Rslight-Posting-User: 504a4e36a1e6a0679da537f565a179f60d7acbd8
X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$XVdP85HwW6qBF4HxX/GLXuiOlNp3YZ0f0yfrDcy0ebP0Q0F48q.cW
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
Bytes: 28461
Lines: 463

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------671f478f8dfae8.50667972
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 28 Oct 2024 3:56:57 +0000, rhertz wrote:

> I understand the efforts that Paul and Prokaryotic have taken to develop
> programs that show the orbit of planets under Newton's theory, within
> the Sun's frame of reference. Both works are based on initial data of
> Keplerian and/or State Vectors as provided by the (almost single) source
> of information, which is the site of NASA JPL Horizon.
>
> I have to tell that such site provides data with modifications BASED ON
> GENERAL RELATIVITY. You can read it in the site "Disclaimer". So, it's
> not a pure source of Newtonian information of positions and velocities,
> but a site that provide HYBRID INFORMATION (Newton + GR), so it's not a
> source to be trusted as one based on Newton-Kepler exclusively.
>
> On the other hand, simplifications used since Le Verrier and as of today
> are based on Gauss gravitational torus (Le Verrier, Newcomb, Clemence,
> etc.), which give almost the same numbers (with some "enhancements"):
> 575"/cy observed versus 532"/cy derived from theoretical calculations.
> And all of them (due to Gauss simplifications) give an unexplained
> difference of about 43"/cy, which (allegedly) Einstein verified
> theoretically.
>
> **************
>
> All the time that I wrote about the HOAX on Mercury mystery, I was based
> on the impossibility (analytical and numerical) to SOLVE THE N-BODY
> PROBLEM, in order to include EVEN the slightest influence of one planet,
> moon, etc., over ANY OTHER PLANET.
>
> And that is BECAUSE applying Newton to the 9 planets has to account the
> influence of every planet over every each other, which become a problem
> of ALMOST INFINITE RECURSION. Starting with the two heavier planets, for
> instance, requires computing the MUTUAL EFFECT on both planets from
> their barycenter, to LATER apply the gravitational effect of the Sun on
> each one, WHICH FORCES A NEW CALCULATION on the influence of one planet
> over the other, AND SO ON. Where is the limit of such problem of
> recursion?
>
> Just take as an example the work of Lagrange on the 3-Body problem (Sun,
> Earth, Moon). With all the efforts done by Lagrange, its solutions are
> not final, because the Lagrangian points ARE  NOT STEADY and have
> complicated motions. It's accepted that, in the average, these motions
> can be included in orbital calculations for spatial observatories, but
> still there is not a conclusive solution. Not to mention IF another
> perturbation, like Jupiter, is included.
>
> So, my posture is that the adoption of the 562"/cy for Mercury's
> perihelion advance IS AN APPROXIMATION, which gives the famous 43"/cy.
>
> BUT, if the N-Body problem is included (instead of Gauss Torus), the
> result of the general influence WILL NOT BE of 532"/cy (or 5.32"/year),
> but MUCH HIGHER THAN THAT, bringing down the famous 43"/cy (WHICH HAVE
> BEEN WRITTEN IN STONE, FOR THE MENTAL HEALTH OF PHYSICISTS).
>
> Anyone questioning it is immediately labeled as a crank, crackpot, etc.
>
> But there are voices of reason that question such result, which is one
> of the PILLARS of the validity of the general relativity.
>
> Here are some comments and papers that I searched for this post:

[deleted quotes]

Your main point seems to be that the Gauss Ring approximation is
inaccurate, calling into question the 43"/century discrepancy that was
resolved by GR

The "naive" Gauss ring approximation, which uses circular, coplanar
rings with uniform distribution of mass around the ring, is indeed
rather inaccurate.

My simulation using coplanar rings with equal masses uniformly
distributed around the circumference gave results very close to the
analytic computation of 554 arcsec/century given in
https://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/celestial/Celestial/node44.html

However, my simulation using non-coplanar, elliptic rings with a
weighted distribution of masses gave results in close agreement with
the 532 arcsec/century figure given in
https://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/celestial/Celestial/node45.html

See my attached figure.

I would contend that Le Verrier Newcomb etc., confronted with a
discrepancy between theoretical and observed precessions, knew
better than to employ a naive Gauss ring computation.
--------------671f478f8dfae8.50667972
Content-Type: image/png;
 name=Gaussian_Ring_Computation.png
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename=Gaussian_Ring_Computation.png
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========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========