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From: wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2025 01:14:02 +0800
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On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 11:14 -0500, olcott wrote:
> On 6/11/2025 10:58 AM, wij wrote:
> > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 10:29 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > On 6/11/2025 10:11 AM, wij wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 10:00 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > On 6/11/2025 9:45 AM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 09:40 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > On 6/11/2025 9:36 AM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 09:20 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 6/11/2025 3:56 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-10 16:51:49 +0000, olcott said:
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > On 6/10/2025 2:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-08 05:38:26 +0000, olcott said:
> > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/8/2025 12:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-07 13:51:33 +0000, olcott said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/7/2025 3:13 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-06 16:17:48 +0000, olcott said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/6/2025 3:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-04 15:59:10 +0000, olcott sa=
id:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/4/2025 2:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-03 20:00:51 +0000, olcot=
t said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/3/2025 12:59 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2025-06-03 at 16:38 +01=
00, Mike Terry wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 03/06/2025 13:45, dbush wr=
ote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/2/2025 10:58 PM, Mike =
Terry wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if presented with /d=
irect observations/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > contradicting his positio=
n, PO can (will) just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > invent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > new magical thinking that=
 only he is smart enough to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand, in order to s=
omehow justify his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > busted intuitions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My favorite is that the dir=
ectly executed D(D) doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > halt even though it looks l=
ike it does:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/24/24 19:18, olcott wr=
ote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0> The directly executed D(D) reaches a final
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > state and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exits normally.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0> BECAUSE ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE SAME COMPUTATION
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HAS
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BEEN ABORTED,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0> Thus meeting the correct non-halting criteria
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0> a computation must be aborted to prevent its
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > infinite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > execution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0> then this computation DOES NOT HALT (even if it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like it does).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right - magical thinking.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PO simply cannot clearly thin=
k through what's going on,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > due to the multiple levels in=
volved.=C2=A0 In his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > head they all become a mush o=
f confustions, but the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mystery here is why PO does n=
ot /realise/ that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > he can't think his way throug=
h it?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I try something that's b=
eyond me, I soon realise
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not up to it. =C2=A0Somehow P=
O tries, gets into
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a total muddle, and concludes=
 "My understanding of this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes beyond that of everybody=
 else, due to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my powers of unrivalved conce=
ntration equalled by almost
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody on the planet, and my =
ability to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminate extraneous complexi=
ty".=C2=A0 How did PO ever start
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > down this path of delusions?=
=C2=A0 Not that that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > matters one iota... :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People seem to keep addressing =
the logic of the implement
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of POOH, but it does not matter=
 how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > H or D are implemented, because=
:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. POOH is not about the Haltin=
g Problem (no logical
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > connection)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Likewise ZFC was not about what i=
s now called naive set
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > theory.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To a large extent it is. Both are i=
ntended to describe those
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sets that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > were tought to be usefult to think =
about. But the naive set
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > theory failed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because it is inconsistent. However=
, ZF excludes some sets
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people want to consider, e.g., the =
universal set, Quine's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > atom. There is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no agreement whether do not satisfy=
 the axiom of choice and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its various
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > consequences should be included or =
excluded, so both ZF and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ZFC are used.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quine's atom is nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it is not. It is a set that one can=
 assume to exist or not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to exist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urelement#Q=
uine_atoms
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is the same as every person that is th=
eir own father.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, it is not the same. Being of ones own f=
ather is impossible
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of the say the material world works. Imagin=
ary things like sets
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > imagined to work wichever way one wants to =
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