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From: Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Helmet efficacy test
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2025 12:39:41 -0400
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John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, 29 Mar 2025 22:16:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 3/29/2025 8:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On 29 Mar 2025 19:19:26 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 3/29/2025 12:35 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2025 21:49:52 -0400, Radey Shouman
>>>>>> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you point out a few flu vaccine studies, of the design and quality
>>>>>>> that would convince you if they were instead about bike helmets?  All of
>>>>>>> us have to die of something, congestive heart failure, pneumonia, flu,
>>>>>>> whatever.  I guess you would want some evidence that with flu shots
>>>>>>> (bike helmets) people actually live longer and better lives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps -
>>>>>> https://www.cdc.gov/flu-vaccines-work/php/effectiveness-studies/index.html
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/safest-bike-helmet
>>>>>
>>>>> And note the differences, please.
>>>>>
>>>>> The data on flu vaccine effectiveness comes from counting actual flu
>>>>> cases in the general population, in some cases among people
>>>>> hospitalized, in other cases outpatients.
>>>>> https://www.cdc.gov/flu-vaccines-work/php/vaccine-effectiveness/index.html
>>>>> So that's counting what actually happened, as in "How many Americans
>>>>> were infected with flu?" They find that vaccinated folks are much less
>>>>> likely to catch the flu.
>>>>>
>>>>> The helmet article's 3rd photo shows their method of measuring
>>>>> "effectiveness." It has nothing to do with counting cases in the general
>>>>> population, as in "How many Americans got TBI while riding?" Instead it
>>>>> measures deceleration of a model of a human head (no body attached)
>>>>> that's dropped onto an anvil.
>>>>>
>>>>> If they evaluated helmets as they do flu vaccines, they'd have to say
>>>>> "Hmm. Looks like no evidence for saving lives, but concussions have gone
>>>>> up."
>>>>>
>>>>> Also notice the article gives no specific data on the test. The impact
>>>>> speed is 14 mph (from a 2 meter drop) and the deceleration is required
>>>>> to be less than 300 gees to pass government certification.
>>>>>
>>>>> And if you have an expensive, very lightweight helmet you can be sure
>>>>> that the designers whittled away styrofoam as much as possible, leaving
>>>>> enough to just barely pass that impact test.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> There are other folks doing testing, and cheap helmets still don’t do well,
>>>> more expensive helmets have MIPs and other similar tech ie stuff that is
>>>> intended to protect from rotating injuries. Or in the MTB world heavier
>>>> burlier full face ones.
>>>>
>>>> I can’t imagine is any population data either way but I’d absolutely not
>>>> assume cheap would be stronger, is an unwise assumption.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>> 
>>> 
>>> O.K. Try https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-35728-x
>>
>>What was your point, John? I ask because it seems you just grabbed 
>>another study at random. Roger's and my discussion was about cheap 
>>helmets vs. expensive ones. I didn't see that addressed. Perhaps when 
>>you post a link, you could tell us what part of the study was 
>>significant to our discussions?
>>
>>I did see this: "Although rotational acceleration has been known to be 
>>relevant in cyclist injuries, it is still missing in standardized 
>>testing today. Using full body simulation, Wang et al.24 confirmed that 
>>rotational acceleration is indeed increased when wearing a helmet." That 
>>would seem to go back to the issue of a larger moment arm for glancing 
>>blows.
>>
>>And that paper, like almost all, does almost nothing to address the lack 
>>of reduction in TBI counts in the entire population. They do mention one 
>>paper by Olivier claiming large reductions in cyclist TBI in Australia 
>>after their mandatory helmet laws (MHLs). But Olivier is famous in other 
>>forums for his insistence that there was no reduction in cycling as a 
>>result of the MHLs. Copious survey and count data indicating large 
>>reductions in cycling, which would of course lead to large reductions in 
>>cyclist TBI.
>>
>>In Olivier's world, prohibiting all cycling would be a great way of 
>>wiping out almost all cyclist TBI.
>
>
> Sorry Frank, I hate to be the one to tell you but the world does
> rotate around you.
>
>  What actually happened was that Radey Shouman asked a question and I
> replied to it with two references. And subsequently with a third..
>
> Then you leap into the fray. 
>
> Note that I wasn't talking to you and as far as I can tell neither was
> Giouman. 
>
> But here you were blathering away.

Actually I was talking to Mr. Krygowski.  It seems to me that his
standards for studies on flu shots are different to those for bike
helmets, and I was curious as to what had convinced him of the efficacy
and safety of flu shots.

On every topic I can remember, save bike helmets and infrastructure,
Mr. Krygowski tells us to believe the annointed experts.  On bike
helmets, the experts are shills, charlatans, and fashion victims.
Perhaps he is right, and bike helmets really are a unique blind spot in
our expertariat.

For what it's worth I think Mr. Krygowski is closer to right than wrong
on the subject of bike helmets, but that wasn't exactly my question.

--