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From: Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com>
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: OT: totally off-topic
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 11:52:56 -0300
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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D <nospam@example.net> writes:

>> We need to deal with this.  That's a pretty big part of
>> communication.  That's why I appreciate some of the art of listening.
>> I appreciate thoughts like those of David Bohm that one would find in
>> ``On Dialogue''.  By the way, whatever changes you're seeing, I say
>> it's all on the surface.
>
> What is this about? Maybe I should make a note of that text.

That's a conversation David Bohm held with an audience (in California,
if I recall correctly).  The book is a transcription of the
conversation.  In those dialogs, David Bohm tries to convey what he
means by a ``dialogue''.  While an intellectual discussion is typically
a subtle fight, as Jiddu Krishnamurti (David Bohm's friend) would
describe, Bohm's dialogue is a certain construction among two or more
people in which /listening/ (in the Krishamurti's sense) is key.

I believe it was in an interview that David Bohm gave to Professor
Wilkins---which was an interview meant to write a biography of David
Bohm, which I believe never happened---that David Bohm remarked and
pretty much nobody had ever understood his notion of dialogue, and that
made it even more interesting because it suggests that it has a certain
subtleness that could be escaping people---and then I wonder if it
escaped me too.

>>> Well, from one point of view, he is. He is an individual, and I
>>> would say that as long as he is open with only looking for certain
>>> services, and a woman is looking to provide services, that's good!
>>
>> Your ``that's good'' here is likely materialist.  You might be saying
>> ``if they're happy, what's the problem?''  That's essentially
>> saying---it's not my problem.  People can often claim to be happy and
>> even appear happy, when in reality...  That's parents worry so much
>> about their children (and often others beyond than theirs).
>
> This is true. But they are adults, and beyond pointing out something,
> at the end of the day, I have no legal right or any right for that
> matter, to control their lives.

Sure, there's no control intended.  If I'm controlling anything, I
should stop this conversation right now and go put my life in order. :)

  The controller is the controlled. -- Jiddu Krishnamurti

> It is perfectly true, what you are saying, and you could be right, and
> it would be a tragedy, but I prefer to assume things are alright,
> until proven otherwise.

I prefer to assume things are alright if they feel alright.  Not if they
/look/ alright, but it /feels/ alright.  I use a differnt verb to try to
capture the subtleness of things.  My neighbors, for example.  If you
just look, they seem alright, but if you look more carefully... It's not
that they are suffering more than everybody else; everybody else seems
to be suffering just about the same.  And people don't complain much
about that.  They complain about the weather, prices, public opinion and
so on, but they don't really complain about how their ``rights'' (if I
may use that word) are being denied by living a life full of stimulants,
boring work, lack of affection, meaningful friendship and so on.

> When it comes to parents and children, there is a different set of
> expectations, both cultural and legal, so I don't think it would carry
> over.

The comparison with parents and children was not to be taken much
farther.  My fault.

> There is a fine line between wanting to help, when it is justified,
> and being labeled a "Karen".

Lol.  I hadn't heard about ``Karen'' before.  Fun.

All in all, I'm just observing, not judging people or anything.  All I'm
saying about my neighbors doesn't make them anything wrong in any way at
all.  They're surely trying to get things right and so am I.  And I
wouldn't mind anyone saying that I'm the wrong one because I don't even
care at all about who's right or wrong.  I may be wrong, but at the end
of the day I need to carry myself in life as my eyes see it; if I see
that 1 + 1 = 3 and people tell me that it's 2, who can I do?  Should I
believe my brain or their brains?  Now, of course, if they can somehow
make my brain not make the mistake, then I'll get 1 + 1 = 2, too, and
then it will my brain once again tell me what the facts are.

>>>> too---, I actually say that he has a health problem that makes him quite
>>>> insensitive.  Who is suffering the most?  Himself.  His insensibility,
>>>> for example, blinds him even to his own nutrition.  He's losing his
>>>> health slowly year after year.
>>>
>>> That is sad. =(
>>
>> Such is life.  It's difficult.  You can tell people of their symptons,
>> but they don't see it---they don't believe it.  When people can't tune
>> themselves to intelligence, it becomes quite difficult to do anything
>> intelligent.
>
> This is the truth! But I think you have done what you can do, and you
> shouldn't feel bad about it. At the end of the day, he is an adult and
> responsible for his own life.

Quite right.  It's what I said before at some point---respect people.
If they want to throw themselves under a train, you have to respect
them.  I don't mean it literally, of course.  Like Noam Chomsky, I do
think we can exercise authority over people if we can easily justify it.
So, yeah, I would stop you from throwing yourself under a train.
Nevertheless, not forever: I couldn't follow you around each day to see
if you're going near the tracks.  It is absurd to me not to concede that
people do have the right to carry their lives however they want.  

So when people question my arguments, say, I don't really bother too
much with some kind of over-explaining.  If you need to over-explain,
it's likely because we're in an intellectual conversation---a subtle
fight.  There's no point.  I am nearly nothing.  I'm like the wind that
blows.  I can blow on someone's face, but what they'll after the wind is
gone is completely on them.

>>>> open my window to give him a bit of privacy in his little party.
>>>> Chatting went on for a while and then suddenly silence.  So I
>>>> looked and then his friend was likely inside the house and he was
>>>> having sex in the pool.
>>>
>>> Wow! Brazil, here I come! ;)
>>
>> Lol.  You could be getting the wrong impression. :) But the real remark
>> to be made here, in a more serious tone, is that this is no good.  For
>> instance, when I saw them in the swimming pool, the first thing I
>> thought was---omg, what a place for that.  And he was in own home---he
>> likely left the most comfortable place for his friend.  Of course,
>> people might love this kind of stuff.  It's not shameful or obscene or
>> whatever---I couldn't care less about any of that.  I'm saying it's just
>> a someone trying to get some relief, without much of a clue of what's
>> going on.
>
> True. Could be a good example of pleasure now, at the expense of pain later.

Right.

>> By the way, if I were mildly inclined to the same, I could likely be
>> there myself.  When they moved in, they threw various parties and
>> invited me to them all.  I had lots of chances to blend in, but I
>> couldn't, really: I don't drink; I don't stay up all the night; what I
>
> Haha, well, sounds like you probably did yourself a favour. I am
> fascinated! In sweden, it would be exceptionally rare that any
> neighbour would be invited.

I see a lot of neighbors here that don't get along.  I am probably a
very respectful person and perhaps also extroverted and perhaps also
usually happy because people do seem to like to see me.  I greet people
whenever I see them.  I tend to think that whenever I see a human being
I should greet that person.  Of course, we can't do it in a crowded
place, but we can surely do it on our street, at work, the places we
usually go and so on.  I do it.  First a greet, then another and another
and... Last Saturday of Carnival I was having ice cream with a neighbor
of mine who is a lady likely in her 80s.  I also met her son who is
likely a bit older than I am.  And there's more of their family in the
street too, but I haven't met them yet.  Another habit of mine is that I
pretty much ask no questions and answer anyone that comes at me with a
brave honesty and kindness.  This could be improperly seen as small
talk, but given that I can be pretty honest with a no-nonsense attitude,
people would lose the wrong impression if they come a bit closer.

>> eat is the nearly the bare minimum and from a very picky selection.
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