Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell,comp.unix.programmer,comp.lang.misc
Subject: Re: Python (was Re: I did not inhale)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 13:37:24 -0700
Organization: None to speak of
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Bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> On 28/08/2024 19:48, David Brown wrote:
>> On 28/08/2024 19:43, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 21:34:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 11:26:18 +0100, Bart wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> (2) You want to temporarily comment out an 'if' line so that the
>>>>> following block is unconditional. You can't do that with also
>>>>> unindenting the block.
>>>>
>>>> In Emacs, I have commands defined to adjust the indentation of the
>>>> selected region. Surely any other decent editor would offer the same.
>>>
>>> Writing editor editor macros in order to work around fundamentally bad
>>> language design is not something a programmer should have to waste
>>> time on.
>>>
>>>
>> I don't know about Emacs, but in most editors the way you indent a
>> block of code is to select the lines, then press "Tab".  Unindenting
>> is "shift-Tab".  Changing tabs to spaces or spaces to tabs is done
>> by selecting "Tabs to spaces" from the Edit menu, or something
>> equally simple and obvious.  Many editor can be set to convert tabs
>> to spaces (or vice versa) when saving files, perhaps specific to the
>> file type (so you don't muck up your makefiles).
>> It takes a special kind of genius to be able to program, and yet
>> still have trouble with this kind of thing.
>
> The main problem isn't in changing the indentation of a block of code;
> it is in HAVING to do so because of poor language design. A lesser one
> is having to rely on whatever varied features that 100s of different
> editors may have to do so.
>
> And yet another, of more significance, if that after you've indented a
> block, it may now merge into an adjacent block that was already at
> that new indent. If you later need to revert that first block back to
> it's original position, you'd better make sure you mark that boundary.
>
> It is a language design issue pure and simple. Don't try and pin it on
> the users and make out it's due to lack of expertise with their
> editors. Of course we can all indent blocks; it's just an unnecessary
> palaver.
>
> Clearly your point of view is as a language /user/ where languages and
> their characteristics are an invariant that you can't do anything
> about, can't change, and need to work around.
>
> But some of us devise (and, importanly, implement) languages of our
> own and can be more vocal about misfeatures in others.

If I'm moving chunks of code around in a C or C++ program, from one
scope to another, I can get away with leaving the indentation as it is,
because all the compiler cares about is where the braces are.  But I
*always* adjust the indentation to fit the code's new context.

Python's use of indentation to indicate scoping just means that I have
to do what I would have done anyway.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */