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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Try and prove that DDD correctly emulated by HHH reaches its
 final halt state
Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 22:20:39 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 5/12/25 10:36 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/12/2025 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2025-05-11 16:23:29 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 5/11/2025 4:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2025-05-10 15:33:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/10/2025 2:40 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-05-10 01:26:54 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Try to show how DDD emulated by HHH according to the
>>>>>>> rules of the x86 language reaches its own "ret"
>>>>>>> instruction final halt state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you do the impossible then everything happens, including
>>>>>> the reaching of the final "ret" instruction. In this case
>>>>>> the impossible is a correct emulation of DDD by HHH according
>>>>>> to the rules of the x86 language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not impossible for DDD to be emulated
>>>>> by HHH according to the rules of the x86 language.
>>>>
>>>> You may call it possible or impossible but either way, HHH does
>>>> not emulate the final "ret" isntruction.
>>>>
>>>>> Here it is actually doing this.
>>>>>
>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>> [0000219e] 55             push ebp
>>>>> [0000219f] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [000021a1] 689e210000     push 0000219e
>>>>> [000021a6] e843f4ffff     call 000015ee
>>>>> [000021ab] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>> [000021ae] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>> [000021af] c3             ret
>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [000021af]
>>>>>
>>>>> _main()
>>>>> [000021be] 55             push ebp
>>>>> [000021bf] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [000021c1] 689e210000     push 0000219e
>>>>> [000021c6] e823f4ffff     call 000015ee
>>>>> [000021cb] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>> [000021ce] 50             push eax
>>>>> [000021cf] 685f070000     push 0000075f
>>>>> [000021d4] e8a5e5ffff     call 0000077e
>>>>> [000021d9] 83c408         add esp,+08
>>>>> [000021dc] 33c0           xor eax,eax
>>>>> [000021de] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>> [000021df] c3             ret
>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021df]
>>>>>
>>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine        assembly
>>>>>   address   address   data      code           language
>>>>>   ========  ========  ========  ============== =============
>>>>> [000021be][00103872][00000000] 55             push ebp
>>>>> [000021bf][00103872][00000000] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [000021c1][0010386e][0000219e] 689e210000     push 0000219e // push 
>>>>> DDD
>>>>> [000021c6][0010386a][000021cb] e823f4ffff     call 000015ee // call 
>>>>> HHH
>>>>> New slave_stack at:103916
>>>>>
>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:11391e
>>>>> [0000219e][0011390e][00113912] 55             push ebp
>>>>> [0000219f][0011390e][00113912] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [000021a1][0011390a][0000219e] 689e210000     push 0000219e // push 
>>>>> DDD
>>>>> [000021a6][00113906][000021ab] e843f4ffff     call 000015ee // call 
>>>>> HHH
>>>>>
>>>>> The following shows the result of HHH emulating
>>>>> itself emulating DDD. x86utm is a cooperative
>>>>> multi-tasking operating system.
>>>>>
>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e33e
>>>>> [0000219e][0015e336][0015e33a] 55             push ebp
>>>>> [0000219f][0015e336][0015e33a] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
>>>>> [000021a1][0015e332][0000219e] 689e210000     push 0000219e // push 
>>>>> DDD
>>>>> [000021a6][0015e32e][000021ab] e843f4ffff     call 000015ee // call 
>>>>> HHH
>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>>>
>>>>> [000021cb][00103872][00000000] 83c404         add esp,+04
>>>>> [000021ce][0010386e][00000000] 50             push eax
>>>>> [000021cf][0010386a][0000075f] 685f070000     push 0000075f
>>>>> [000021d4][0010386a][0000075f] e8a5e5ffff     call 0000077e
>>>>> Input_Halts = 0
>>>>> [000021d9][00103872][00000000] 83c408         add esp,+08
>>>>> [000021dc][00103872][00000000] 33c0           xor eax,eax
>>>>> [000021de][00103876][00000018] 5d             pop ebp
>>>>> [000021df][0010387a][00000000] c3             ret
>>>>> Number of Instructions Executed(10069) == 150 Pages
>>>>
>>>> Apparently you said that the last "ret" is not acutally emulated but
>>>> only its emulation is emulated.
>>>>
>>>> Your trace lacks the indication of which lines are actually trace lines
>>>> and which are output lines from the emulated program that only look 
>>>> like
>>>> trace lines.
>>>
>>> You must use the machine addresses to see what code
>>> is being emulated. New slave_stack indicate that
>>> a new process context has been created. Code following
>>> that is being emulated.
>>
>> Nowhere is said that a slave stack is disposed. Apparently no emulation
>> is ever completed. But your output is too defective to be sure.
>>
>>> New slave_stack at:14e33e indicates that HHH is
>>> about to emulate itself emulating DDD.
>>
>> But not to the completion of the emulated emulation.
>>
> 
> When what is essentially infinite is specified
> there is no transition to a final halt state.
> 
> It is nutty to require a simulating termination
> analyzer to simulate a non-terminating input forever.
> 

No, it isn't "essential infinite" as your HHH that answer ALWAYS aborts 
its emulation after a finite time, and thus the input only has strictly 
finte recursion.

HHH just lies to itself, believing the lie you told it, that the HHH 
that DDD calls isn't the same as it.

Sorry, you are just showing your logic assuems lying is valid logic.