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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic Subject: Re: Ben thinks the professor Sipser is wrong Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 14:17:56 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: <8bbce1bb519f205ef865a07719bf35f68170ad61@i2pn2.org> References: <tic5tr$25uem$6@dont-email.me> <8735bpq5jh.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <v66o6i$2rv8q$3@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2024 18:17:56 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="2132707"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <v66o6i$2rv8q$3@dont-email.me> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 Bytes: 3045 Lines: 45 On 7/4/24 2:04 PM, olcott wrote: > <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022> > If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D > until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never > stop running unless aborted then > > H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D > specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations. > </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022> > > On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote: > > I don't think that is the shell game. PO really /has/ an H (it's > > trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P) > > *would* never stop running *unless* aborted. > ... > > But H determines (correctly) that D would not halt if it were not > > halted. That much is a truism. > > Ben clearly agrees that the above criteria have been met, > yet feels that professor Sipser was tricked into agreeing > that this means that: > H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D > specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations. > > I spent two years deriving those words that Professor Sipser > agreed with. It seems to me that every software engineer would > agree that the second part is logically entailed by the first part. You mean you WASTED two years and set a trap for your self that you fell into. The problem is that Ben is adopting your definitions that professor Sipser is not using. In particular, for professor Sipser, D must be a program (a turing machine equivalent) but I think Ben is seeing that you H is being defined to take a TEMPLATE instead of a program. Another way to look at thins is that H and P are entertwined entities and not two seperate programs in the system Ben was commenting about. For Professor Sipser, H and D are REQUIRED to be independent entities, since that is what Computation Theory deals with. So, the two problems are in completely different domains.