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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: HHH(DDD) computes the mapping from its input to HHH emulating
 itself emulating DDD --- anyone that says otherwise is a liar
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 12:54:20 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <8c25d20279cfad6662137025897575068e10fe39@i2pn2.org>
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On 11/23/24 11:54 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 11/23/2024 9:35 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 11/23/24 10:15 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 11/23/2024 9:02 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 11/23/24 9:04 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 11/23/2024 1:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-11-22 16:45:52 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/22/2024 2:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-11-21 15:32:38 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/21/2024 3:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-11-20 22:03:43 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/20/2024 3:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-11-20 03:23:12 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/19/2024 4:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-11-18 20:42:02 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/18/2024 3:41 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The "the mapping" on the subject line is not correct. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The subject line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not specify which mapping and there is no larger 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> context that could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify that. Therefore it should be "a mapping".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-11-17 18:36:17 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any encoding of HHH that emulates N
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to infinity number of steps of DDD cannot possibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach its "return" instruction final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because it cannot reach the instructions before tha return.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because it cannot reach the instruction after the HHH call.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because it cannot reach return instruction of HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This applies to every DDD emulated by any HHH no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter the recursive depth of emulation. Thus it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a verified fact that the input to HHH never halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is too vague to be regareded true or false. It is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perfectly possibe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to define two programs and call them DDD and HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What a jackass. DDD and HHH have been fully specified
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for many months.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are specified in a way that makes your "every DDD" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and "any DDD"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad (perhaps even incorrect) use of Common language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I specify the infinite sets with each element numbered
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the top of page 2 of my paper. Back in April of 2023
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> publication/369971402_Simulating_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You have also specifed that HHH is the program in your 
>>>>>>>>>>>> GitHub repository.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Should I assume that you must be lying about
>>>>>>>>>>> this because you did not quote where I did this?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, you may assume that I was confused by your lack of clarity 
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> in particular by your bad choice of names.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you clearly state that HHH is not the function HHH that you 
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> in your GitHub repository then I needn't to consider the 
>>>>>>>>>> possiblity
>>>>>>>>>> that you just triying to deceive by equivcation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HHH is one concrete example of an infinite set of instances
>>>>>>>>> such that DDD is emulated by HHH N times.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That sentence says that there is only one HHH, contradicting your
>>>>>>>> earlier statement that HHH is a generic term for every member of 
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> set.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You seem to be a damned liar: "infinite set of instances"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You mean you lied when you said "one concrete example"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> One element of an infinite set does not say there
>>>>> is no infinite set. Is says there is an infinite set.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But one element of an infinite set is not the infinite set.
>>>>
>>>> You are just showing that your logic is based on proven incorrect 
>>>> set theory.
>>>>
>>>> IF HHH is an ELEMENT of the set, then it is that one element for the 
>>>> entire evaluation, 
>>>
>>> Liar:
>>>
>>> A proof by induction consists of two cases. The first, the base case,
>>> proves the statement for n=0 without assuming any knowledge of
>>> other cases. The second case, the induction step, proves that if the
>>> statement holds for any given case n=k, then it must also hold for
>>> the next case n=k+1. These two steps establish that the statement
>>> holds for every natural number n. The base case does not necessarily
>>> begin with n=0, but often with n=1, and possibly with any fixed natural
>>> number n=N, establishing the truth of the statement for all natural
>>> numbers n ≥ N.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_induction
>>>
>>
>> And when have you ever provided such a proof for your statement?
>>
>> NOWHERE
>>
>> Your problem is you don't even have a logical basis to express your 
>> statements in, so you can't do an induction on them.
>>
> 

So, you are just demonstrating that your "logic" is based on the 
meaningless use of buzzwords that you don't understand, but can parrot 
their unlearned meaning, but have no idea how to actually use.

> 
> *As you already admitted below*
> when N steps of DDD are emulated by HHH
> DDD cannot reach past its call to HHH (statement)

But that was for the DDD that INCLUDED HHH as part of it, which you have 
now made clear is NOT what you consider DDD to be. And for that case 
DDD[n] calls HHH[n] (where HHH[n] is the version of HHH that does only n 
steps of emulation) and while we can say that HHH[n[ does not emulate 
DDD[n] to its final state, that property is NOT a property of of DDD[n], 
but of HHH[n] and DDD[n] as its input. Partial emulation do not 
establish "never" properties, as they are non-semantic, the semantic 
property of DDD[n] reaching its final state or not is only 
demonstratable by looking at an unbounded emulation of that input (not 
necessarily done by the decider) and for DDD[n], for all finite n, we 
see that this emulation will reach a final state, so you claim of NEVER 
reaching a final state, and thus being able to say DDD is non-halting is 
false.

> 
> Thus the induction result is proven:
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========