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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Indirect Reference Changes the Behavior of DDD() relative to DDD
 emulated by HHH
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2024 11:12:21 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 9/2/24 9:12 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 9/1/2024 6:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-08-31 12:50:34 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 8/30/2024 8:31 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-08-29 14:04:05 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/29/2024 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 11:46:58 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 13:04:26 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 12:45 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 26 Aug 2024 18:03:41 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/26/2024 7:42 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/08/2024 22:07, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We don't really know what context Sipser was given.  I got 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the time so I do know he had enough context to know 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that PO's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideas were "wacky" and that had agreed to what he 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> considered a "minor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remark". Since PO considers his words finely crafted and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> key to his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so-called work I think it's clear that Sipser did not take 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "minor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remark" he agreed to to mean what PO takes it to mean!  My 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that he (Sipser) read it as a general remark about how to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine some cases, i.e. that D names an input that H 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can partially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate to determine it's halting or otherwise.  We all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could construct some such cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly my reading.  It makes Sipser's agreement natural, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is both correct [with sensible interpretation of terms], 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and moreover
>>>>>>>>>>>>> describes an obvious strategy that a partial decider might 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can decide halting for some specific cases.  No need for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sipser to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deceptive or misleading here, when the truth suffices.  (In 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to employ "tricksy" vacuous truth get out clauses 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> PO off his back as some have suggested.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and it fits with his thinking it a "trivial remark".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That aside, it's such an odd way to present an argument: "I 
>>>>>>>>>>>> managed to
>>>>>>>>>>>> trick X into saying 'yes' to something vague".  In any 
>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>> collegiate exchange you'd go back and check: "So even when D is
>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed from H, H can return based on what /would/ 
>>>>>>>>>>>> happen if H did
>>>>>>>>>>>> not stop simulating so that H(D,D) == false is correct even 
>>>>>>>>>>>> though D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>> halts?".  Just imagine what Sipser would say to that!
>>>>>>>>>> Is this an accurate phrasing, pete?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Deciders never compute the mapping of the computation
>>>>>>>>> that they themselves are contained within.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why not? A decider always either accepts or rejects its input.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The computation that they themselves are contained within cannot
>>>>>>> possibly be an input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would prevent that if the input language permits computations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When a TM takes its own machine description as input
>>>>> this is not always that same behavior as the direct
>>>>> execution of the machine. It is not the same because
>>>>> it is one level of indirect reference away.
>>>>
>>>> Now you contradict what you said above. You said that deciders never
>>>> conpute the mapping of the computation they themselves are contained
>>>> within.
>>>
>>> Although deciders cannot possibly see their own behavior
>>> other people can see this behavior.
>>
>> The designer of the decider knows the intended behavour of the decider
>> and may design the decider to contain and use that knowledge.
>>
> 
> Since it is impossible for HHH to report on its own
> behavior HHH cannot report on the direct execution of DDD
> thus the direct execution of DDD, DD, d, PP, and P
> (the main counter-example to my proofs for the last
> three years) HAS ALWAYS BEEN IRRELEVANT.

ANd thus you admit that it can not possible correctly answer the 
question that is being asked of it.

Thus, proving you claim has been wrong.

There is nothing wrong with failing to do a task that has been assigned 
to you that is impossible. The problem comes when you volunteer to do 
the impossible task, and then LIE about doing it.

> 
>>>> Now you are saying that they do in a way that might not be
>>>> as expected.
>>>
>>> If is a verified fact that DDD has different behavior
>>> before it is aborted in the same way that people are
>>> hungry before they eat.
>>
>> Different from what?
>>
>> The behaviour of DDD before the point where the simulation is aborted
>> is a part of the behaviour of DDD. If the simulator simulates aoother
>> behaviour then the simulator does not simulate correctly.
>>
>>> than the behavior of DDD after it has been aborted,
>>> people are not hungry after they eat.
>>
>> That is not a sentence. Looks like an editing error.
>>
>>> The direct execution of DDD includes the behavior
>>> of the emulated DDD after it has been aborted.
>>
>> Both the directly executed DDD and the emulated DDD are DDD and
>> therefore the same, and its behaviour is the behaviour of DDD
>> regradless how you call it.
>>
> 
> Why say something so stupid?
> DDD emulated by HHH must be aborted or it never stops running.
> Directly executed DDD never need be aborted.
> 

Which doesn't give HHH the right to give the wrong answer.

> ANY FREAKING MORON KNOWS THAT
> MUST BE ABORTED AND MUST NOT BE ABORTED
> ARE NOT THE SAME DAMN THING.
> 

And thus, that HHH must abort DDD so HHH can answer is different than 
that HHH must abort DDD because DDD will never stop running.

That is like says 4 x 5 = 2 could be the correct answer because you ran 
out of ink after finishing the 2.

HHH needs to abort its simulation so it can make a decision, that 
doesn't mean the simulation it did was "correct", only a partially 
correct simulation, and thus doesn't define what HALTING is.

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