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From: John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: bike light optics
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2024 09:37:28 +0700
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On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 10:35:34 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/10/2024 9:27 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 4/9/2024 10:33 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/9/2024 7:32 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 4/8/2024 4:53 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 4/8/2024 10:42 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/7/2024 5:11 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/7/2024 3:35 PM, zen cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/7/2024 1:26 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/7/2024 11:54 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 12:25:03 -0400, zen cycle
>>>>>>>>>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> bullshit. Constitutional originalists  - those 
>>>>>>>>>>> claiming _such_ things as
>>>>>>>>>>> "original Constitution had a better ethos" come up 
>>>>>>>>>>> empty when reminded
>>>>>>>>>>> that racism and misogyny were quite literally 
>>>>>>>>>>> written into the original
>>>>>>>>>>> version. Sure, when asked about the 3/5ths 
>>>>>>>>>>> compromise they say 'oh,
>>>>>>>>>>> yeah, except for that', then when asked about 
>>>>>>>>>>> giving women the right to
>>>>>>>>>>> vote they say 'oh, yeah, except for that'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Only fools believe the 3/5th compromise was a 
>>>>>>>>>> racist thing. What it
>>>>>>>>>> was an attempt by the non-slave states to reduce 
>>>>>>>>>> the politcal power of
>>>>>>>>>> the slave holding states, who wanted to count all 
>>>>>>>>>> the slaves.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, the slave states wanted to count them all.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Exactly, as anyone who has read in the period knows.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe you should try reading in the period then.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from The Federalist papers, #54
>>>>>>>> "The federal Constitution, therefore, decides with 
>>>>>>>> great propriety on the case of our slaves, when it 
>>>>>>>> views them in the mixed character of persons and of 
>>>>>>>> property. This is in fact their true character. It is 
>>>>>>>> the character bestowed on them by the laws under 
>>>>>>>> which they live; and it will not be denied, that 
>>>>>>>> these are the proper criterion; because it is only 
>>>>>>>> under the pretext that the laws have transformed the 
>>>>>>>> negroes into subjects of property, that a place is 
>>>>>>>> disputed them in the computation of numbers; and it 
>>>>>>>> is admitted, that if the laws were to restore the 
>>>>>>>> rights which have been taken away, the negroes could 
>>>>>>>> no longer be refused an equal share of representation 
>>>>>>>> with the other inhabitants."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> yeah....that's not about race at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should know better than to follow the lead of a 
>>>>>>>> willfully ignorant dumbass.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ditto Hammurabi's 'An eye for an eye'. That was not 
>>>>>>>>> a call to mayhem but rather a groundbreaking call 
>>>>>>>>> for mercy and limited reprisal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you , yes I've read The Federalist a few times, 
>>>>>>> years apart. It's always a good read and I must say 
>>>>>>> generally underappreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Avoiding presentism, the issue at hand was a seemingly 
>>>>>>> insurmountable barrier to union. Union being 
>>>>>>> considered of exceptional even existential import, 
>>>>>>> something was desperately needed to bring resolution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nowhere on earth were slaves*, at that time or before, 
>>>>>>> voting in general elections. Note that our 
>>>>>>> Constitution even precedes William Wilberforce's 
>>>>>>> eventually successful campaign in the British Empire.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The distorted Southern economies relied on bondage 
>>>>>>> (that reliance only increased after the Founding) but 
>>>>>>> preferred to count 'all persons' for Congressional 
>>>>>>> seats.  The Southern leaders had probably never heard 
>>>>>>> of an irony meter but if there was one it would shoot 
>>>>>>> off the end at that proposition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For both economic but also moral reasons the northern 
>>>>>>> states did not generally allow bondage (Pennsylvania 
>>>>>>> formally outlawed it in 1780, well before our 
>>>>>>> Constitution, before Wilberforce, before anywhere else 
>>>>>>> on earth AFAIK.) and were firm on not bumping the 
>>>>>>> number of Southern representatives in the Congress.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even before the now mostly misunderstood 3/5 rule, 
>>>>>>> several of the Framers including Jefferson privately 
>>>>>>> wrote that the practice would necessarily have to end, 
>>>>>>> albeit as St. Augustine pleaded, "not yet".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> p.s. Although the general practice in the Americas at 
>>>>>>> that time was of black slavery, there were black 
>>>>>>> freemen (including early patriot fatality Crispus 
>>>>>>> Attucks) and there were not-black slaves. Still, I 
>>>>>>> agree with you that this was and is inherently race 
>>>>>>> tainted to our greater loss, then and now. It is also 
>>>>>>> critically viewed as a rift between universal liberty 
>>>>>>> and its selective denial, a fundamental conflict then 
>>>>>>> and now, here and everywhere. Humans are imperfect but 
>>>>>>> the Framers set up a system incontrovertibly aligned 
>>>>>>> to destroy the chattel system well before anyone else 
>>>>>>> on earth had considered it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?...As far as I know, international African slave trade 
>>>>>> and the practice of holding african slaves was 
>>>>>> generally banned by every nation which had practiced it 
>>>>>> well before the US did, while the US not only 
>>>>>> maintained slavery as an institution, but passed at 
>>>>>> least two laws - fugitive slave acts - as late as 1850 
>>>>>> that reinforced the institution. Further to that, the 
>>>>>> Fugitive Slave acts were abused by domestic slave 
>>>>>> traders such that free blacks - either emancipated or 
>>>>>> born free - were abducted and sold into slavery in the 
>>>>>> south.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The historian Carol Wilson documented 300 such cases 
>>>>>> in Freedom at Risk (1994) and estimated there were 
>>>>>> likely thousands of others"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Risk-Kidnapping-America-1780-1865/dp/0813192978
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then there's Solomon Northrup:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "born free around 1808 to Mintus Northup and his wife 
>>>>>> in Essex County, New York state.....In 1841, Northup 
>>>>>> was tricked into going to Washington, DC, where slavery 
>>>>>> was legal. He was drugged, kidnapped, and sold into 
>>>>>> slavery, and he was held as a slave in Louisiana for 12 
>>>>>> years. One of the very few to regain freedom under such 
>>>>>> circumstances, he later sued the slave traders involved 
>>>>>> in Washington, DC. Its law prohibited Northup from 
>>>>>> testifying against the white men because he was black 
>>>>>> and so he lost the case."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Northrup published his Memoir "12 Years a Slave"on the 
>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Then
>>>>>>> 2 generations later the nation sacrificed 3/4 million 
>>>>>>> of her citizens to end it. Not the first instance on 
>>>>>>> earth, but early to the change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Of all descriptions, none in greater numbers at that 
>>>>>>> time than the mostly Balkan/Slavic slaves within the 
>>>>>>> Caliphate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And of the American sailors enslaved by the Barbary 
>>>>> moslems, many were killed, half the survivors were 
>>>>> castrated. History, ours and everyone's, is full of 
>>>>> violence injustice and general savagery.  Who could 
>>>>> dispute that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Was enslavement of american sailors by the Barbary 
>>>> muslims set up as _legal_ international trade scheme 
>>>> where governments of nations involved sanctioned and 
>>>> protect the trade? Were the laws where the slaves were 
>>>> traded set up to protect the slave owners and sanction 
>>>> the sale of humans?
>>>>
>>>> Conflating international piracy with a legally sanctioned 
>>>> and protected slave trade is a desperate grasp at 
>>>> rationalizing the practice - an extreme case of 
>>>> "whataboutism".
>>>>
>>>> The point is that you claimed the US lead the way via
>>>>
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