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From: mpsilvertone@yahoo.com (HarryLime)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Ginsberg's Rorschach poetry
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2025 19:38:30 +0000
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On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 19:08:51 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 18:22:57 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:11:37 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:
>>
>>>> Victor H. wrote:
>>>> Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination,
>>> Pendragon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Says the
>>>>>
>>>>> No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please
>>> Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.
>>>>>
>>>>> HTH and HAND.
>>>>
>>>> Did Pendragon ever admit he was wrong....?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You know Pendragon never admits when he's wrong.
>>
>> It doesn't matter if the poem was written for Neal Cassady (a man
>> roughly 1/3 Ginsberg's age), as nothing in the actual poems specifies
>> this.
>
> Wrong again, Harry.
>
> Allen Ginsberg and Neal Cassady were both born in 1926.
>
> <Crickets continue as Harry Lime continues to ignore this correction.>

I have already addressed it, Donkey.  Here is what I wrote:

I'm not talking about the history, Donkey.  So there's no need to keep
repeating yourself.

The poem does not mention Neal Cassady's name.  It is addressed to
someone known only as "Master."  The poem is therefore not about Neal
Cassady.

This doesn't mean that the poem wasn't *inspired by* Ginsberg's
relationship with Cassady.

A poem is composed of words.  A proper reading of a poem must confine
itself solely to the words.  If the poem doesn't mention Neal Cassady,
then you cannot say that the poem is about Ginsberg's relationship with
Cassady.

The poem is about a "Master" and IIRC an unidentified speaker.

Approaching the poem on its own terms, I read it as depicting the
homosexual BDSM relationship between a Dom and a Sub.  I also read it as
hinting at a relationship between a Master and his Apprentice.  Both
readings are justified by the poem's text, and both can easily be seen
to coexist.

Any critical reading of the poem will necessarily pick up on the
Man-Boy/Master-Apprentice/Sub-Dom implications, and draw the same
conclusions as myself.

I'm glad to learn that Cassady and Ginsberg were roughly the same age.
Good for them.

The poem, otoh, is still strongly implying a Man-Boy relationship.

[END QUOTE]

This statement appears in *this* thread.  Had you not been in such a
tizzy (firing off a half dozen posts in a row), you might have actually
seen it.

--