Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.quux.org!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: George J. Dance@novabbs.com (George J. Dance)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: NastyGoon lifts a line
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2025 13:37:45 +0000
Organization: novaBBS
Message-ID: <912c53b9143f2a3aca65c832a9a70fb5@www.novabbs.com>
References: <c120480a19034181aef31ea4a03df8d8@www.novabbs.com> <2a4af4ec834eef3f54981b740292339e@www.novabbs.com> <43d39b4a1c89d7225266eba011c12000@www.novabbs.com> <07ab66c1c01e208a4fc1ab071e658db5@www.novabbs.com> <9311088ba61ebc6586521a7b24f47801@www.novabbs.com> <36c080c524f1293340f607e197eddacf@www.novabbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="4046219"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="8+dz2rsm3jrbG2zIijE9ZpD7dtD/aCelSs77CawmFcg";
User-Agent: Rocksolid Light
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$c696PG0.g4soYSgUPGVKg..CPpQ6NJrqkGrOUCavWCm6Dr2cKPQtS
X-Rslight-Posting-User: da88b0d4e721c88c814af4f3bade12e63975cfc7

On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:00:34 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 23:55:05 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 16:44:20 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 5:38:14 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 1:38:39 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=255731&group=alt.arts.poetry.comments
>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I realized from the content of NancyGene's posts that they were
>>>>>>> intelligent, well-educated, and better written than anyone here.
>>>>>>> Naturally, I asked them to start contributing to the "Sampler."  And I
>>>>>>> was right in doing so.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here are the opening lines of NancyGene's latest poem:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Yesterdays stack up like piles of read newspapers,
>>>>>>> Cluttering my mind and obstructing my day."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's poetry of the highest quality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The opening line is very good. It's almost as good as the opening line
>>>>>> of Robert Creeleys poem, "The Days Pile Up":
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The days pile up like unread newspapers,"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do hope "Dr." NastyGoon credited Mr. Creeley; otherwise that would be
>>>>>> something they would call, you know -- "plagiarism".
>>>>>
>>>>> True, Robert Creeley wrote a pretty good line, obviously Nancy Gene
>>>>> agrees.
>>>>
>>>> After being forced to read and think about the two opening lines
>>>> repeatedly the past few days, I have to say that Creeley's metaphor
>>>> makes sense and NG's, no matter how "poetical" HarryLiar finds it, does
>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>> If the newspapers are "unread", it makes sense that they'd "pile up."
>>>> You save the paper you didn't have time to read today, hoping you'll
>>>> have time to read it tomorrow; then you don't have time tomorrow and you
>>>> now have two unread papers; then three the next day; four the next; so
>>>> on. Eventually you'll end up with piles of newspapers that you're hoping
>>>> to read some day when you have the time.
>>>>
>>>> That's a great metaphor; the unread newspapers represent all the things
>>>> one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business that just
>>>> keeps piling up and piling up.
>>>
>>> Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile.  [Please note the difference
>>> between "simile" and "metaphor."]
>>
>> No, HarryLiar. Creeley's simile compared how "The days pile up" with how
>> "unread newspapers" pile up (which makes sense, as unread newspapers do
>> pile up if one has no time to read them).
>>
>> If (as I read him) he's using "The days" to represent "all the things
>> one doesn't get to do in a day, all the unfinished business," that is
>> not a simile. It's a differet literary device entirely.
>
> Since you refuse to reprint the poem, or provide a link to it, you can't
> fault me for basing my reading on a single, out of context line.

Actually, HarryLiar, we're now talking about my reading of the line -
"the unread newspapers represent all the things one doesn't get to do in
a day, all the unfinished business that just keeps piling up and piling
up" and your response" which I called a "great metaphor" and your
response: "Yes, George, that's Creeley's simile.  [Please note the
difference
between "simile" and "metaphor."]

Using "the days" to represent "unfinished business" is not a simile.
It's symbolism, or (if you'd like to quibble) metonymy.

>>> NancyGene is making a totally different simile than Creeley.  Piled
>>> newspapers are being compared to two very different things.
>>
>>> Yes, HarryLiar; we know that much.

>>> NastyGoon is comparing how "Yesterdays stack up" with how "read
>>> newspapers" stack up (which doesn't make sense, because read newspapers
>>> don't stack up on their own; they go into the recycling bin and get
>>> thrown away).
>>
>>>> But why would NG, or anyone, save all the newspapers they have already
>>>> read; why would those "stack up"? Just maybe they have a bird and need
>>>> to line the bottom of its cage, but they wouldn't have to save every
>>>> single newspapers for that; they can save the amount they think they
>>>> need, and throw the rest away. But since we can't read the poem, just
>>>> the two lines HarryLiar keeps slurping, who knows why they think people
>>>> save all the newspapers they've already read?
>>>
>>> As I previously explained to you, the newspapers in NancyGene's simile
>>> represent "Yesterdays," or *Memories.*
>>
>> That is also not a simile. If NastyGoon had said in the poem "Yesterdays
>> are like memories" that would be have been a simile, but they did not.
>> In your reading, they are also using a different literary device.
>
> And just what literary device is that?

"Symbolism" sounds good to me.

>>> If you haven't read the
>>> newspaper, you have no memory of its contents.
>>
>> So you're saying that using "Yesterdays" to mean "memories" makes sense;
>> but we're discussing their simile, not that literary device.
>
> Are you now going to prattle on about some unnamed literary device
> (which you have no intention of identifying)?

I just identified it, in both poems, HarryLiar. Now, as for their
similes, both are virtualy identical: both compare days ("The days" in
one, "Yesterdays" in the other) to newspapers {"unread" in one, "read"
in the other).

>>> The speaker in
>>> NancyGene's poem feels as if they are unable to escape from their
>>> memories, so the *read* newspapers keep piling up -- becoming more
>>> oppressive with each passing day.
>>
>> Which is not a good simile, as I said, because "read newspapers" do not
>> normally stack up that way
>
> Technically, newspapers don't stack up stack up any way by themselves;
> they are stacked up by others.

That's a stupid quibble; of course stacks of newspapers are made by
people. Normally, people do not stack up the newspapers they've alread
read.

> But we are discussing a line of poetry, a literary form that deals in
> simile, symbol, and metaphor -- so why should it matter how you think
> they stack themselves in real life?

If in a poem you're trying to use a simile to show how the says "pile
up" or stack up, you should try to use a vehicle that does normally
"pile up" (like Creeley's "unread newspapers", not one that does not
normally "stack up" (like
"read newspapers"). That should be clear enough to anyone who isn't just
trying to play the peabrain.

>>- once they're read, they're thrown away.
>
> Under normal circumstances, yes.

So a reader's first thought would be that the line makes no sense.

> However, when someone is suffering from clinical depression, they often
> do not bother taking out their trash.  As previously noted, my Great
> Aunt who suffered from depression stacked all of her read newspapers and
> magazines on her front porch. The stacks reached up to the ceiling, and
> covered the entire porch, barely allowing passage to her door.

Are you saying that a perceptive reader would conclude that NastyGoon's
speaker is suffering from "clinical depression"? Are you saying that's
what you concluded on the basis of one line? I did not.

>> If
>> NastyGoon wanted to compare oppressive memories stacking up to something
>> else, they should have compared that to something that is read and not
>> thrown away; anything from magazines, to books, to downloaded files on a
>> hard drive. But comparing them to newspapers doesn't make sense.

"Old clothes would be another good vehicle; those stack up in closets,
whether they've been worn or not. That makes four better choices than
NastyGoon's.

> Again, it not only makes perfect sense, but it perfectly mirrors the
> practices of my Great Aunt.

Are you saying that, because you had a Great Aunt who suffered from
clinical depression and didn't throw away newspapers she'd read, you
were able to grasp from one line that NastyGoon's speaker suffered from
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========