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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Halting Problem: What Constitutes Pathological Input
Date: Wed, 7 May 2025 06:36:06 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 5/6/25 10:43 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/6/2025 9:30 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 5/6/25 9:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/6/2025 5:43 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 5/6/25 11:10 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/6/2025 4:26 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-05-05 18:14:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/5/2025 11:16 AM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/5/2025 12:13 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 05 May 2025 11:58:50 -0400, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/5/2025 11:51 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/5/2025 10:17 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> What constitutes halting problem pathological input:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Input that would cause infinite recursion when using a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> decider of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulating kind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Such input forms a category error which results in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> halting problem
>>>>>>>>>>>> being ill-formed as currently defined.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I prefer to look at it as a counter-example that refutes all 
>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>> halting problem proofs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which start with the assumption that the following mapping is 
>>>>>>>>>> computable
>>>>>>>>>> and that (in this case) HHH computes it:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Given any algorithm (i.e. a fixed immutable sequence of 
>>>>>>>>>> instructions) X
>>>>>>>>>> described as <X> with input Y:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A solution to the halting problem is an algorithm H that 
>>>>>>>>>> computes the
>>>>>>>>>> following mapping:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (<X>,Y) maps to 1 if and only if X(Y) halts when executed 
>>>>>>>>>> directly
>>>>>>>>>> (<X>,Y) maps to 0 if and only if X(Y) does not halt when executed
>>>>>>>>>> directly
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>     int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>     if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>       HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>     return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The x86utm operating system includes fully operational HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>> and DD.
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When HHH computes the mapping from *its input* to the 
>>>>>>>>>>> behavior of DD
>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH this includes HHH emulating itself emulating 
>>>>>>>>>>> DD. This
>>>>>>>>>>> matches the infinite recursion behavior pattern.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thus the Halting Problem's "impossible" input is correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>>>> to be non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Which is a contradiction.  Therefore the assumption that the 
>>>>>>>>>> above
>>>>>>>>>> mapping is computable is proven false, as Linz and others have 
>>>>>>>>>> proved
>>>>>>>>>> and as you have *explicitly* agreed is correct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The category (type) error manifests in all extant halting 
>>>>>>>>> problem proofs
>>>>>>>>> including Linz.  It is impossible to prove something which is 
>>>>>>>>> ill- formed
>>>>>>>>> in the first place.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All algorithms either halt or do not halt when executed 
>>>>>>>> directly. Therefore the problem is not ill formed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When BOTH Boolean RETURN VALUES are the wrong answer
>>>>>>> THEN THE PROBLEM IS ILL-FORMED. Self-contradiction must
>>>>>>> be screened out as semantically incorrect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Irrelevant. One of the boolean values (the one not returned) is the
>>>>>> right one as can be determined e.g. with an UTM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You only get something that appears that way when a false 
>>>>>>>> assumption is made, namely that the halting function is computable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The mapping from the input HHH(DD) finite string of
>>>>>>> machine code to DOES SPECIFY RECURSIVE EMULATION
>>>>>>> THAT WOULD PREVENT DD FROM EVER HALTING.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it does not. HHH returns 0 and DD halts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You can't show the detailed steps of the execution
>>>>> trace of DD emulated by HHH (according to the rules
>>>>> of the x86 language) where DD halts because you are wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Because a trace of DD correctly emulatd by HHH doesn't exist as HHH 
>>>> doesn't correctly emulate DD
>>>>
>>>
>>> Show what the execution trace of DD emulated by HHH
>>> according to the rules of the x86 language should be
>>
>> Since HHH doesn't actually do that, your question is void.
>>
> 
> You say it is wrong unless you are lying
> you can point out what the correct steps should be.

It shouldn't stop till it reaches the end.

> 
> The way that everyone can know that you are lying
> is you will forever dodge the question what the
> correct steps should be.

It is just too many pages to want to post.

It has been done before, so no need to repeat it.

> 
> _DD()
> [00002133] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
> [00002134] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
> [00002136] 51         push ecx      ; make space for local
> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD
> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD)
> [00002141] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [00002144] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00002147] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [0000214b] 7402       jz 0000214f
> [0000214d] ebfe       jmp 0000214d
> [0000214f] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
> [00002152] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
> [00002154] 5d         pop ebp
> [00002155] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155]
> 
> 

Not a Program, as it doesn't contain all the input.

When you add Halt7.c, then your premise is incorrect, as HHH doesn't 
correctly emulate its input, but stop emulating before it gets to  the end.

Since you yourself have posted the answer, you can't say it hasn't been 
done, and the fact that you have proven yourself a liar means I don't 
need to repeat that full proof.

If you want to see it again, just trace the results of your x86utm where 
ain is

int main() {
   DD();
}
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