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From: jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: PTD was the most-respected of the AUE regulars ...
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:19:08 +0000
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On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 6:01:49 +0000, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> Sun, 28 Jul 2024 15:06:32 +0000: jerry.friedman99@gmail.com
> (jerryfriedman) scribeva:
>
>>On Fri, 26 Jul 2024 17:29:10 +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-07-26, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 25 Jul 2024 12:41:13 -0700, HenHanna <HenHanna@devnull.tb>
>>>>>       The instance I remember most was when he (PTD) opined that Most
>>>>>Chinese words consisted of 2 Chinese characters.
>>>
>>> It's not wrong just because PTD said it.  Over on Language Log, the
>>> eminent sinologist Victor Mair also keeps pointing out that the
>>> Chinese thinking that a Chinese character/syllable equals a word
>>> is just not true and that most of the Chinese lexicon is made from
>>> a combinations of two morphemes and rendered in two characters.
>>
>>Mair contributed a chapter to Daniels and Bright, so he was probably
>>the source for PTD's knowledge of that.
>>
>>>> In his own field he had some useful information, but outside his field
>>>> he could be very dogmatic about things that he simply got wrong.
>>>
>>> But what _is_ PTD's area of actual expertise?  Writing systems, I
>>> guess, supported by the fact that he co-edited a book on the topic?
>>
>>
>>He's also written a book on writing systems.
>>
>>https://www.amazon.com/Exploration-Writing-Peter-T-Daniels/
>>
>>As you probably noticed, his guest post on Language Log on writing
>>systems was well received.
>>
>>> Semitic languages, maybe--or am I already misled by my own total
>>> ignorance there?
>>
>>He knows a lot more than I do about all of the Semitic languages
>>except Hebrew, but on the other hand he wrote
>>
>>'Hebrew does not have subordinating conjunctions. It uses parataxis, not
>>hypotaxis. KJV tried to translate literally, word by word, so "and" was
>>used
>>wherever wa-(and allomorphs) appeared.'
>>
>>https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usage.english/c/MZ7qGDVppiU/m/4h_E2sqqBAAJ
>>
>>The subject was the King James Bible, but it was still misleading
>>not to say that modern Hebrew has several subordinating conjunctions
>>and uses them often.
>
> He was talking about Biblical Hebrew. Now you start about Modern
> Hebrew. Not the same grammar.
>
> Initial waw in Biblical Hebrew was indeed mistranslated as "and" in
> English and "en" in Dutch etc., because in reality it was an aspect
> and tense reversing prefix or some such:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vav-consecutive

I don't think it's a mistranslation in most situations, because as
the Wikipedia article, it has the conjunctive meaning in addition
to changing the tense or aspect.  You could make a case that
it is a mistranslation at the beginning of a narrative.

Actually the 1611 King James translators agreed in at least one
place.  A literal translation of Joshua 1:1 would begin "And it was
after the death of Moses the servant of Yahweh," but the KJV
had "Nowe after the death of Moses the seruant of the Lord".

>>(Note how effectively that could lead to an
>>argument.  "That doesn't apply at all to modern Hebrew."  "The
>>subject is obviously Biblical Hebrew."  "But...")
>
> There you have it.

Yes, classic PTD.  With one word ("Biblical") he could have avoided
misleading anyone or starting an argument.  But the main point is
below.

>>More to the point, the statement is not true even of Biblical Hebrew.
>>It has /fewer/ subordinating conjunctions than modern European
>>languages and uses hypotaxis /less/, but it does use hypotaxis.  For
>>instance
>>
>>'asher or she- 'that, which, what': "I am that I am"
>>
>>ki 'that, because, when': "And God blessed the seventh day, and
>>sanctified
>>it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created
>>and made.'  (The "which" there is 'asher again.)
>
> This is far beyond me, so I have no take on it.

It's quite simple.  Biblical Hebrew had subordinating conjunctions
and subordinate clauses, contrary to PTD's flat statement.

>>k- 'like, as': "As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth
>>my soul after thee, O God."
>>
>>l-ma`an 'so that': "Therefore choose life, that thou and thy seed may
>>live."
>>
>>The statement that the KJV used "and" whenever "wa-" appeared is
>>very close to true, I believe.  However "Therefore" in "Therefore
>>choose life" is u-, an allomorph of wa-, as PTD put it.  (I just noticed
>>that.)
>
> So he did (and does) have knowledge of Hebrew grammar after all.

Some knowledge.  "A little learning is a dangerous thing."

I'm by no means an expert on Hebrew, much less Biblical Hebrew,
but I'm capable of recognizing obvious facts and I have some idea
of the limits of my knowledge.

> BTW, isn´t it quite impolite to gossip about someone who himself
> cannot be present to comment if he so chose?

I would have disagreed with him about this and other things at the
time if he had handled disagreement in a decent way and had
shown that he could learn from correction.

--
Jerry Friedman