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Path: ...!news.misty.com!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH --- (does not refer to prior posts) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2024 11:12:08 -0400 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: <9e047bf23a8e00e7429bde1c8480f10cfe7fc8cf@i2pn2.org> References: <vajdta$2qe9s$1@dont-email.me> <vak3a0$2teq9$1@dont-email.me> <vakhnf$302rl$2@dont-email.me> <vamk7l$3d7ki$1@dont-email.me> <van3v7$3f6c0$5@dont-email.me> <vap7b1$3sobs$1@dont-email.me> <vapvbc$3vumk$5@dont-email.me> <e10aee5b3ede543da42ba76ac4d7f0a0fe762695@i2pn2.org> <vasmn8$hmpd$1@dont-email.me> <vaumg9$ut9s$1@dont-email.me> <vav0r9$10jsm$1@dont-email.me> <vavb4a$11uqn$1@dont-email.me> <vavca1$1283f$1@dont-email.me> <vave2b$11uqn$7@dont-email.me> <vavfoi$12m8t$4@dont-email.me> <vb1hq0$1fgj7$1@dont-email.me> <vb4enb$2rs5t$3@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2024 15:12:08 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="602294"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg"; User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <vb4enb$2rs5t$3@dont-email.me> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 Bytes: 13062 Lines: 252 On 9/2/24 9:31 AM, olcott wrote: > On 9/1/2024 6:05 AM, Mikko wrote: >> On 2024-08-31 16:18:26 +0000, olcott said: >> >>> On 8/31/2024 10:49 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:19 schreef olcott: >>>>> On 8/31/2024 9:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:03 schreef olcott: >>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 4:07 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>> Op 30.aug.2024 om 16:58 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:56 AM, joes wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:07:39 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 2:17 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 12:08:06 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 12:44:31 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 3:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 04:33 schreef olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is intended to be a stand-alone post that does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else mentioned in any other posts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD() >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping [00002175] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6872210000 push >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ; call >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002182] 5d pop ebp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we assume that: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) HHH is an x86 emulator that is in the same memory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> space as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD. (b) HHH emulates DDD according to the semantics of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the x86 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we can see that DDD emulated by HHH cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly get past >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own machine address 0000217a. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we see. In fact DDD is not needed at all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should also point a link to the equivocation fallacy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You use it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more often than straw man. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Isomorphism is not equivocation >>>>>>>>>>>> The use of HHH for many purposes (a specific program, an >>>>>>>>>>>> unpsecified >>>>>>>>>>>> memeber of a set of programs, a hypothetical program) is. >>>>>>>>>>>> Your first posting looked like you were going to apply >>>>>>>>>>>> equivocation >>>>>>>>>>>> later in the discussion. Now, after several later messages, >>>>>>>>>>>> it seems >>>>>>>>>>>> that you want to apply the fallacy of "moving the goal >>>>>>>>>>>> posts" instead. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of DDD would be if >>>>>>>>>>> this HHH >>>>>>>>>>> never aborted its emulation of DDD. >>>>>>>>>> Problem is, DDD is then not calling itself, but the non-input >>>>>>>>>> of a >>>>>>>>>> not-aborting HHH. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs* >>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs* >>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is your problem. The code of the program and its meaning >>>>>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language, does not >>>>>>>> suddenly change when the aborting occurs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You cannot possibly say one damn thing about the behavior of DDD >>>>>>> until you first understand that a world class x86 emulator that >>>>>>> HHH calls does enable HHH to correctly emulate itself emulating >>>>>>> DDD and the following execution trace proves this. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And when this unmodified world class x86 simulator was given >>>>>> olcott's DDD based on the aborting HHH as input, it showed that >>>>>> this has halting behaviour. >>>>>> THIS IS A VERIFIED FACT! Even olcott has verified it. >>>>>> This correct simulation by the unmodified world class simulator >>>>>> tells us that the program has a halting behaviour. >>>>>> Your *modification* of the simulator stops the simulation before >>>>>> it can see the halting behaviour and decides that the input is >>>>>> non- halting. >>>>>> We know which one is correct: the unmodified world class >>>>>> simulator, not the *modified* one, which aborts one cycle too soon.. >>>>>> >>>>>> SO, it it not honest to suggest that we do not understand what the >>>>>> world class simulator predicts. >>>>>> >>>>>>> SE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY HONEST DIALOGUE WHEN MY REVIEWERS >>>>>>> INSIST ON LYING ABOUT VERIFIED FACTS. >>>>>> >>>>>> No evidence given. No reference to a single lie. >>>>>> Olcott seems just a bit short of memory. >>>>>> It is unclear why olcott hides these verified fact, which he knows >>>>>> are true. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _DDD() >>>>>>> [00002172] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping >>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping >>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404 add esp,+04 >>>>>>> [00002182] 5d pop ebp >>>>>>> [00002183] c3 ret >>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _main() >>>>>>> [00002192] 55 push ebp >>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec mov ebp,esp >>>>>>> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404 add esp,+04 >>>>>>> [000021a2] 50 push eax >>>>>>> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743 >>>>>>> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762 >>>>>>> [000021ad] 83c408 add esp,+08 >>>>>>> [000021b0] 33c0 xor eax,eax >>>>>>> [000021b2] 5d pop ebp >>>>>>> [000021b3] c3 ret >>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> machine stack stack machine assembly >>>>>>> address address data code language >>>>>>> ======== ======== ======== ========= ============= >>>>>>> [00002192][00103820][00000000] 55 push ebp ; Begin >>>>>>> main() >>>>>>> [00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; >>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>> [00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>> [0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call >>>>>>> HHH(DDD) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4 >>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored >>>>>>> at:1138cc >>>>>>> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55 push ebp ; >>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; >>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call >>>>>>> HHH(DDD) >>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2ec >>>>>>> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55 push ebp ; >>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; >>>>>>> housekeeping >>>>>>> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>> [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call >>>>>>> HHH(DDD) >>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Still dreaming of the HHH that does an infinite recursion? >>>>> >>>>> Before we can proceed to the next step you must first agree >>>>> that the second emulation of DDD by the emulated HHH is proven >>>>> to be correct on the basis that it does emulate the first four >>>>> instructions of DDD. >>>>> >>>> ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========