Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Incorrect requirements --- Computing the mapping from the input
 to HHH(DD)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 13:13:27 +0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 255
Message-ID: <9f5774bfb493325652f97d72f760ad98442c333d.camel@gmail.com>
References: <vv97ft$3fg66$1@dont-email.me> <vvj2j6$23gk7$1@dont-email.me>
	 <as9TP.251456$lZjd.93653@fx05.ams4>
	 <87msbmeo3b.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <vvjc9b$27753$1@dont-email.me>
	 <87ecwyekg2.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <vvjg6a$28g5i$3@dont-email.me>
	 <d577d485d0f5dfab26315f54f91eb84f25eecc40@i2pn2.org>
	 <87bjs2cyj6.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <vvkffn$2m36t$4@dont-email.me>
	 <vvl84g$2rl0l$10@dont-email.me>
	 <c0b0db5de5c7f7ccb24b06d44108deb41fbde8dc@i2pn2.org>
	 <vvlm2k$30idv$1@dont-email.me> <vvlnad$2uvnf$5@dont-email.me>
	 <vvlnpj$30vce$1@dont-email.me> <vvlsp5$31vqc$1@dont-email.me>
	 <vvlv04$32kt3$1@dont-email.me> <87r00xchn5.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com>
	 <23a27379d226b7b3b9f8c303a492f66edc9019ff.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvmgtr$3a34p$7@dont-email.me>
	 <1020d30c2c5b5a7cce584777131d5ce414b480ea.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvmk29$3atmt$3@dont-email.me>
	 <0323d5ca6d757a1e35d7e4cf5eb4fc8f41bc866a.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvmlk0$3blcs$1@dont-email.me>
	 <c6904fbe42c4ad1eb3d1dcc50d18e6e75f159d75.camel@gmail.com>
	 <vvmmtd$3bqvb$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 07:13:29 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="c665478d8699930ce63ac26f3a79e21a";
	logging-data="3518251"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19AU2GTiUDm6FkDIr+VnozX"
User-Agent: Evolution 3.54.3 (3.54.3-1.fc41)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:hl6iE4ojStZC57QiUbrPgUV+XAw=
In-Reply-To: <vvmmtd$3bqvb$1@dont-email.me>
Bytes: 12838

On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 00:06 -0500, olcott wrote:
> On 5/9/2025 11:51 PM, wij wrote:
> > On Fri, 2025-05-09 at 23:44 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > On 5/9/2025 11:32 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 2025-05-09 at 23:18 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > On 5/9/2025 10:43 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, 2025-05-09 at 22:24 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > On 5/9/2025 10:13 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Fri, 2025-05-09 at 19:40 -0700, Keith Thompson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > > > On 5/9/2025 4:40 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On 09/05/2025 21:15, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/9/2025 3:07 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 09/05/2025 20:46, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have not begun to get into any of those poin=
ts.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are only asking can DDD correctly simulated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > by any HHH that can exist ever reach its own
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "return" instruction.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > DDD can't be correctly simulated by itself (which=
 is effectively
> > > > > > > > > > > > > what you're trying to do when you fire up the sim=
ulation from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > inside DDD).
> > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > How the Hell did you twist my words to say that?
> > > > > > > > > > > I haven't touched your words. What I have done is to =
observe that
> > > > > > > > > > > DDD's /only/ action is to call a simulator. Since DDD=
 isn't itself a
> > > > > > > > > > > simulator, there is nothing to simulate except a call=
 to a
> > > > > > > > > > > simulator.
> > > > > > > > > > > It's recursion without a base case - a rookie error.
> > > > > > > > > > > HHH cannot successfully complete its task, because it=
 never regains
> > > > > > > > > > > control after the first recursion. To return, it must=
 abort the
> > > > > > > > > > > simulation, which means the simulation fails.
> > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > void DDD()
> > > > > > > > > > > > {
> > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 HHH(DDD);
> > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 return;
> > > > > > > > > > > > }
> > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > When 1 or more statements of DDD are correctly
> > > > > > > > > > > > simulated by HHH then this correctly simulated
> > > > > > > > > > > > DDD cannot possibly reach its own =E2=80=9Creturn s=
tatement=E2=80=9D.
> > > > > > > > > > > On what grounds can you persuade an extraordinarily s=
ceptical
> > > > > > > > > > > readership that HHH 'correctly simulated' DDD?
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > Any competent C programmer can see that
> > > > > > > > > > the call from DDD to HHH(DDD) (its own simulator)
> > > > > > > > > > is equivalent to infinite recursion.
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > On 5/8/2025 8:30 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Assuming that HHH(DDD) "correctly simulates" DDD, and=
 assuming it
> > > > > > > > > > > does nothing else, your code would be equivalent to t=
his:
> > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 void=
 DDD(void) {
> > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DDD();
> > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 return;
> > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
> > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > Then the return statement (which is unnecessary anywa=
y) will never be
> > > > > > > > > > > reached.=C2=A0 In practice, the program will likely c=
rash due to a stack
> > > > > > > > > > > overflow, unless the compiler implements tail-call op=
timization, in
> > > > > > > > > > > which case the program might just run forever -- whic=
h also means the
> > > > > > > > > > > unnecessary return statement will never be reached.
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > I had not intended to post again, but I feel the need to =
make
> > > > > > > > > a clarification.
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > I acknowledged that the return statement would never be r=
eached
> > > > > > > > > *given the assumption* that HHH correctly simulates DDD.=
=C2=A0 Given
> > > > > > > > > that assumption, a call to DDD() should be equivalent to =
a call
> > > > > > > > > to HHH(DDD).
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > I did not address whether the assumption is valid.=C2=A0 =
I merely
> > > > > > > > > temporarily accepted it for the sake of discussion, just =
as I would
> > > > > > > > > accept that if I were ten feet tall I would bump my head =
against
> > > > > > > > > the ceiling in my house.
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > The discussion I had with olcott did not reach the point =
of
> > > > > > > > > discussing *how* HHH could correctly simulate DDD, or whe=
ther it
> > > > > > > > > would even be logically possible for it to do so.=C2=A0 I=
 also did not
> > > > > > > > > address any issues of partial simulation, where olcott cl=
aims that
> > > > > > > > > HHH can "accurately simulate" only a few x86 instructions=
 rather
> > > > > > > > > than simulating its entire execution.=C2=A0 I did not par=
ticipate in
> > > > > > > > > any discussion that would require knowledge of x86 machin=
e or
> > > > > > > > > assembly code.=C2=A0 (I have no doubt that I could learn =
x86 machine
> > > > > > > > > and assembly code reasonably well if motivated to do so, =
but I am
> > > > > > > > > not so motivated.)
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > What I acknowledged was barely more than "if HHH correctl=
y simulates
> > > > > > > > > DDD, then HHH correctly simulates DDD".=C2=A0 (My underst=
anding from
> > > > > > > > > posts by others, whom I presume to be sufficiently knowle=
dgeable,
> > > > > > > > > is that HHH logically cannot accurately simulate DDD.)=C2=
=A0 I would
> > > > > > > > > prefer that olcott refrain from using my words to support=
 any of
> > > > > > > > > his arguments beyond the scope of what he and I directly =
discussed.
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > Don't know why you people stick on the 'simulation' stuff s=
o long.
> > > > > > > > The HP simply asks for such an H (in function form. POOH do=
es not
> > > > > > > > resemble TM):
> > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 H(D)=3D1 if D() halt.
> > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 H(D)=3D0 if D() not halt.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > My invention of a simulating termination
> > > > > > > analyzer shows exactly how to compute the
> > > > > > > mapping that the input that HHH(DD) specifies
> > > > > > > into a correct answer for the halting problem's
> > > > > > > otherwise impossible input.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > All rebuttals are based on failing to compute
> > > > > > > this mapping correctly.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > What is the correct mapping?
> > > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > _DDD()
> > > > > [00002172] 55=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 pus=
h ebp=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; housekeeping
> > > > > [00002173] 8bec=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 mov ebp,esp=
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========