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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2024 16:58:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Why does Olcott care about simulation, anyway?
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
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From: Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2024 17:58:45 +0100
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On 03/06/2024 10:42, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
> 
>> PO's D(D) halts, as illustrated in various traces that have been posted here.
>> PO's H(D,D) returns 0 : [NOT halting] also as illustrated in various traces.
>> i.e. exactly as the Linz proof claims.  PO has acknowledged both these
>> results.  Same for the HH/DD variants.
>>
>> You might imagine that's the end of the matter - PO failed.  :)
>>
>> That's right, but PO just carries on anyway!
> 
> He has quite explicitly stated that false (0) is the correct result for
> H(D,D) "even though D(D) halts".  I am mystified why anyone continues to
> discuss the matter until he equally explicitly repudiates that claim.
> 
>> So really, there's no /need/ to "refute" everything he says - the end
>> result will be exactly the same as just ignoring him, BUT WITH THE LATTER
>> ONLY NEEDING 0.1% OF THE EFFORT and eliminating 99.9% of the posting
>> clutter in these newsgroups.  [ok, comp.theory will die pretty quickly, but
>> it is not discussing anything useful, so that's ok for most people... (with
>> some reluctance)]
> 
> Do we know that?  There's the start of a discussion of quines on
> comp.lang.c that probably belongs here, but no will dare come here to
> discuss it because of all the junk.

I'd like to think that comp.theory could continue without PO.  That would be great but let's face it 
there aren't too many people around with questions or suggestions about computing theory, and with 
the GG links severed there will be less new blood finding the group in future.

I saw the quine thread last night, but haven't thought about it much yet.  My first thought was 
aren't quines supposed to be about a specific programming language like C where the executable is 
generated purely from compiling the C code?  Malcolm has presumably embedded his source folder as a 
binary resource in his executable, and the executable just extracts that resource and "prints" it. 
If that counted as a quine then quines would be pretty unchallenging, hence more thought needed 
(like how did his source folder get "compiled" into his quine executable?  and for me, what 
/exactly/ is a quine?  I'm not clear on that when you move beyond a single compiler to entire tool 
sets that produce a program... Such a toolset can simply copy the source to some location accessible 
to the program [like a binary resource inside the executable] and the program can just access it and 
print it out?).

Anyway the C and C++ groups have healthy traffic regardless of PO, so will carry on - at least as 
long as the current crowd are around.  I still think the break with GG will ultimately cut off new 
posters who would have encountered the group via GG, so the long term future is not good, but that's 
some way off.

Mike.