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From: John Harshman <john.harshman@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: West Virginia creationism
Date: Sun, 19 May 2024 18:26:37 -0700
Organization: University of Ediacara
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On 5/19/24 3:27 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
> John Harshman wrote:
>> On 5/18/24 8:41 PM, Ron Dean wrote:
>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>>>> On 14/05/2024 01:58, Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>> Ernest Major wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 13/05/2024 15:19, Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ron Dean wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> major snip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Slave-holding South. Southerners bought slaves from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the North. What about the Northern Slave Merchants and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturers who built ships for the cargo for the slave 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trading North. This is rarely mentioned in history. And of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> course, history is written by the victors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not to mention the real cause of the US Civil War was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tariffs imposed on the South. Lincoln had no objection to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery. In fact slavery as a issue did not exist until 2 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years after the start of the war. It was raised by Lincoln 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only after Great Brittan showed an interested in entering 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into the war on the side of the South. Slavery was then 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made a moral issue, which deterred Britten, which earlier 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had outlawed slave trading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well we can add US history to the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lengthy-but-ever-expanding list of topics about which you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blather sans knowledge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The founders knew that slavery would eventually have to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> abolished. But they also know that if they tried to do so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately after gaining independence from Britain there 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be no hope of forming a single nation. That didn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop them from fighting about slavery (and viciously at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> times) in the Constitutional Convention of 1787- rather a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fair bit of time before the 1858 point in time you assert 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (idiotically) people all of a sudden became concerned with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery. And at that Convention a resolution was passed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the international slave trade would be banned in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> US in 1800.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You also apparently slept through the part in class when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Missouri Compromise was discussed. That was in 1820, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the result was Missouri coming into the US as a slave 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> state and Maine as a free state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We probably should also mention the Compromise of 1850, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> brokered between Henry Clay and Stephen Douglas (do those 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> names sound at all familiar?). This group of laws included, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shamefully, the Fugitive Slave Act, which would do much to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inflame tensions between north and south.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the two compromises also led pretty much directly to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Kansas-Nebraska Act (1854) which precipitated the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disaster now called "Bleeding Kansas." Maybe you've heard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of John Brown, and the Pottawatomie Massacre and the raid 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on Harper's Ferry? No? Not surprising if you think no one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cared about slavery until two years before the Civil War.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And tariffs were the cause of the Civil War? Even for you, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's unmitigated, steaming fetid fecal matter. It. Was. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not. Tariffs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not. States'. Rights.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Slavery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the individual states' articles of secession. They're 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all available. Without fail, they all inform us that the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason they are seceding is slavery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Read the reports of the Cornerstone Speech by Alexander 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephens- the Vice President of the CSA. Slavery is the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cornerstone of their ideology; it is the reason for the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> war; it is the inherent inferiority of Black people ("the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Negro") that relegates them to their lot as slaves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're wrong about everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this revisionist crap about the cause of the Civil War 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is especially disgusting. Stop it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not that I don't find the fact that slavery is repugnant, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> unjustified and inhuman: I absolutely do.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But again there's enough guilt to go around. The Northern 
>>>>>>>>>>>> states originally were also involved with
>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery, a fact not mentioned by you and rarely iealsewhere. 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Northerners were the slavers that built slave ships and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> manufactured goods for trading and Northern merchants traded 
>>>>>>>>>>>> with native people for slaves. It was not Southern farmers 
>>>>>>>>>>>> going to Africa for invading the continent for slaves, but 
>>>>>>>>>>>> they bought slaves from the northern merchant. In fact my 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ggggrandfather (3) gfathers was a slave.  This also applies 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to most African- Americans. My 14 year old gggmother was 
>>>>>>>>>>>> raped, and he was hung. Heard this from my grandmother. Not 
>>>>>>>>>>>> that I'm proud of this part of my ancestory. But I have had 
>>>>>>>>>>>> life, which otherwise I would not have had.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My mother was from Germany, married my father,  stationed in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany after WWII. So, had it not been for slavery I would 
>>>>>>>>>>>> not have had life, nor life in the US. Would my father and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mother ever have met except for WWII - not likely.   The 
>>>>>>>>>>>> point is we don't always have control over the events that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> happened, and often tragedies that happen can have positive 
>>>>>>>>>>>> outcomes for some of us.
>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.marottaonmoney.com/protective-tariffs-the-primary-cause-of-the-civil-war/
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/tariffs-and-the-american-civil-war.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_in_United_States_history
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 90% of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic. I for 
>>>>>>>>>>> one don't believe much of anything you wrote about your 
>>>>>>>>>>> family history, and even if it's true, I don't care.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your first reference was written by a pair of financial 
>>>>>>>>>>> advisers. Couldn't you have at least made an effort to find 
>>>>>>>>>>> even a shitty apologist historian to support your disgusting 
>>>>>>>>>>> racist bullshit? As for your second reference, here's a 
>>>>>>>>>>> passage from near the end (did you read anything besides the 
>>>>>>>>>>> title? Your scholarship is matched evenly with your honesty- 
>>>>>>>>>>> both are in the sewer):
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "For the northern government’s diplomatic objectives, as 
>>>>>>>>>>> Cobden and Bright continuously reminded Sumner, the Morrill 
>>>>>>>>>>> Tariff had been a shortsighted strategic blunder. It 
>>>>>>>>>>> unintentionally alienated an otherwise natural anti-slavery 
>>>>>>>>>>> ally for what could, at best, be described as short term 
>>>>>>>>>>> economic favors to a few politically connected firms and 
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