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Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!not-for-mail From: John Harshman <john.harshman@gmail.com> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Science has a news article up about "living fossils" Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 06:28:17 -0700 Organization: University of Ediacara Lines: 80 Sender: to%beagle.ediacara.org Approved: moderator@beagle.ediacara.org Message-ID: <U9Kdne6x6OVsNGz4nZ2dnZfqlJydnZ2d@giganews.com> References: <uso3e0$3sddr$1@dont-email.me> <5uudnTnDGosMDnL4nZ2dnZfqlJydnZ2d@giganews.com> <uspc19$84nb$1@dont-email.me> <yr2dnSQUUo3UwW34nZ2dnZfqlJydnZ2d@giganews.com> <09eb9e29-3c55-41d7-bddb-2a150f25b316@gmail.com> <90g2vi53lor4frghejjttq66sevob4856s@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org; posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89"; logging-data="80372"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@beagle.ediacara.org" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: talk-origins@moderators.isc.org Return-Path: <poster@giganews.com> X-Original-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org Delivered-To: talk-origins@ediacara.org id 8B2FF22976C; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:25:28 -0400 (EDT) by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50C37229758 for <talk-origins@ediacara.org>; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 09:25:26 -0400 (EDT) by moderators.individual.net (Exim 4.97) for talk-origins@moderators.isc.org with esmtp (envelope-from <poster@giganews.com>) id 1rkOfB-00000000uqy-34UU; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 14:28:57 +0100 by egress-mx.phmgmt.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C2060B62 for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:28:17 +0000 (UTC) by serv-4.ord.giganews.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB42944048E for <talk-origins@moderators.isc.org>; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 08:28:17 -0500 (CDT) by serv-4.i.ord.giganews.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 42DDSHU7091398; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 08:28:17 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: serv-4.i.ord.giganews.com: news set sender to poster@giganews.com using -f X-Path: news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail X-NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 13:28:17 +0000 Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <90g2vi53lor4frghejjttq66sevob4856s@4ax.com> X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Original-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Bytes: 7104 On 3/12/24 10:59 PM, jillery wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2024 09:04:22 -0700, erik simpson > <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 3/12/24 6:44 AM, John Harshman wrote: >>> On 3/12/24 3:50 AM, Ernest Major wrote: >>>> On 11/03/2024 23:28, John Harshman wrote: >>>>> On 3/11/24 4:17 PM, RonO wrote: >>>>>> https://www.science.org/content/article/these-gars-are-ultimate-living-fossils >>>>>> >>>>>> Open access article: >>>>>> https://academic.oup.com/evolut/advance-article/doi/10.1093/evolut/qpae028/7615529?login=false >>>>>> >>>>>> These researchers looked at Gar, but it also applies to sturgeons. >>>>>> These two bony fish lineages seem to have a very slow rate of >>>>>> molecular evolution. The changes in their DNA accumulate so slowly >>>>>> that two lineages separated for over 100 million years can still >>>>>> form fertile hybrids. 3 million years is pushing it for species >>>>>> like lions and tigers that can still form hybrids, but the hybrids >>>>>> are sterile. Bonobos and chimps are around 3 million years divergent >>>>>> and can still form fertile hybrids, but the claim is that these fish >>>>>> evolve orders of magnitude more slowly than mammals. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Science news article claims that mammals accumulate 0.02 >>>>>> mutations per site per million years, while these fish averaged only >>>>>> 0.00009 mutations per million years. For the 1100 coding exons that >>>>>> they looked at for this study these fish evolve much more slowly >>>>>> than mammals. >>>>>> >>>>>> The news article notes that other "living fossils" such as >>>>>> coelacanths (0.0005) evolve faster, but slower than amphibians >>>>>> (0.007). It sounds like terrestrial animals evolve faster than fish. >>>>> >>>>> If it's repair mechanisms they hypothesize as the cause of slow >>>>> evolution, they really should be looking at junk sequences rather >>>>> than just 4-fold degenerate sites. I suggest introns. And if the >>>>> introns aren't alignable, well, that kills the theory right there. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Tree species thought to be separated by tens of millions of years are >>>> known to hybridise. For example Platanus orientalis and Platanus >>>> occidentalis, and also with Tilia, Quercus and Aesculus. In the case >>>> of Tilia I suspect that multiple rounds of introgression has served to >>>> limit the amount of divergence between species. However Tilia does >>>> appear as a short branch in cladograms, supporting the hypothesis that >>>> forest trees have a lower rate of evolution. >>>> >>> Then again, ducks that are thought to be separated by tens of millions >>> of years are also known to hybridize, and their rate of evolution isn't >>> particularly slow. >>> >> All sorts of seemingly long-separated species (both plant and animal) >> are observed. What determines whether the hybrid offspring are fertile, >> infertile or sterile? I found an article on Big Think >> https://bigthink.com/the-past/soviet-human-ape-super-warriors-humanzee-ivanov/ >> describing an unsuccessful attempt to produce a "humanzee". Fortunately >> it didn't work. The chromosome count is different in humans and >> chimpanzee, but does this imply that it's essentially impossible? > > > My understanding is, the limiting factor is the compatibility of mtDNA > with nuclear DNA. As species evolve, mtDNA mutates faster than > nuclear DNA, but they still need to maintain compatibility with each > other. Organisms where the two are poorly compatible fail to thive or > even to survive. Over time, isolated populations can evolve mtDNA > that are no longer compatible with nuclear DNA from other populations. > ISTM infertility between isolated populations would be a natural > though not necessarily inevitable consequence of having two separate > DNA pools. > > ********************************* > Zhang C, Montooth KL, Calvi BR. Incompatibility between mitochondrial > and nuclear genomes during oogenesis results in ovarian failure and > embryonic lethality. Development. 2017 Jul 1;144(13):2490-2503. doi: > 10.1242/dev.151951. Epub 2017 Jun 2. PMID: 28576772; PMCID: > PMC5536873. > ********************************** That's one of several possible reasons for incompatibility. Some others have already been mentioned.