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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: My Father's House / gjd (for new comments)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 17:15:27 +0000
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On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:05:00 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 15:37:35 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
> HarryLime wrote:
>> Will Dockery wrote:
>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Father's House
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is my father's house, although
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They said it would be quite all right
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be so many other places.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While watching my friends run and play
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To read or play alone, and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here it is, MFH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for reposting this poem of mine, Will. While it's true that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been discussed a lot over the years, it also true that at least one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person wants to discuss it now; and this would be the appropriate place
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to move those comments, rather than leaving them scattered all over the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group. So let's start with this one:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 13:06:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you lie so much, George?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (That's a rhetorical question, as you've already intimated that your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathological lying stems from you having been abused as a child.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, Lying Michael: I have never said, or even "intimated" (!) that I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathological, lying, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "abused as a child".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You wrote a "mostly autobiographical" poem detailing the abuses you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suffered as a child, George.  And you're demonstrating your pathological
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obsession with lying in your trio of denials, listed above.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=15801&group=rec.arts.poems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HarryLiar has manufactured yet another fake quote; I have never called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this poem "mostly autobiographical" or autobiographical in many ways. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have distinctly told him in the past that, while some of the speaker's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> memories were based on my own childhood experiences, not all of them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were; I was using them in a work of creative fiction, not an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> autobiography of any kind. So he lied and made up a fake quote to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support his lie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem is meant to be a dramatic monolgue, in the style of Browning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (His "My Last Duchess" is a good example), meant to get inside the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> psychology of a  speaker or persona. The speaker may have experienced
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his childhood as "abuse" - HarryLiar calls it that but the speaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't. The memories of it, though, have stayed on his mind, and he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wants to get rid of those memories (symbolized by burning down the house
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the end).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's deliberately left to the reader to decide if the speaker actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had been abused by his father or not. I did structure it, for effect,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the least to the most abusive-seeming experiences; from having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use a back door and remove his shoes to enter the house, to doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> household chores, to doing garden work in the summertime, to not being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allowed to use some of the furniture, to having to stay inside alone at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> night and be in bed early, to being subjected to corporal punishment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adding them together like that, it's easy enough to conclude that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> father had been abusive; but I'll point out that all of those events
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were things children commonly experienced 50-60 years ago, and that none
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of them were commonly considered abusive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As Karla Rogers often reminded us:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Try not to mistake the speaker in the poem with the writer of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poem."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I'd noted in my post, Karla's oft-quoted adage (oft-quoted by you,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is), is simply incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My previous post explains why:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "In fact, Karla's oft-quoted adage aside, one can *never* fully separate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the two.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For instance, all of the characters in any author's fictional novel are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to represent some aspect of the author.  Every poem stems from its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> author's imagination... regardless of what external persons and/or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> events might have inspired it.  Every literary work is similar to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dream construct in that regard; and like a dream construct, can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> analyzed by a psychologist, a literary critic, or even the average
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reader.  Since "My Father's House" was based to a large extent on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> own childhood experiences, it literally begs for a psychoanalytical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading."
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You dispute the wisdom of the mighty Karla Rogers?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm here for the poetry.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You're only here to lie and misrepresent, Harry.
>>>>>
>>>>>> While I've been discussing the poetry of Robert Creeley for a
>>>>>> week now.
>>>>>
>>>>> You've made very few attempts to discuss anyone's poetry over the years
>>>>
>>>> No, I've discussed dozens of poems and poets here over more than two
>>>> decades.
>>>
>>>
>>> I challenged you to pick a Bukowski
>>> poem of you choice, and write at least one paragraph
>>
>> I posted that months ago, Harry.
>>
>> Look it up.
>
> 1) I'm not going to search though 1,000s of Usenet threads

I've bumped it to the top for you several times, Pendragon.

Apparently you didn't want to see it because it proves you wrong and we
all know you're not good with being proven wrong.

😏