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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies
 non-terminating behavior to HHH
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 23:21:37 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <a8b150912bc326cd01c9e9ee89762d12b9fc571e@i2pn2.org>
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On 2/25/25 9:13 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 2/25/2025 5:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 2/25/25 4:12 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 2/25/2025 8:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2025-02-24 23:36:04 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/24/2025 2:47 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-02-23 17:44:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/23/2025 4:59 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-22 16:11:31 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/22/2025 3:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-21 22:35:16 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/21/2025 2:18 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-20 21:31:44 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/20/2025 2:38 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-20 00:31:33 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/19/2025 3:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-18 11:26:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/18/2025 3:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-17 09:05:42 +0000, Fred. Zwarts said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 23:51 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 4:30 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 15:58:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 2:02 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 13:24:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 10:35 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 06:51:12 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:49 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 12:40:04 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 2:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 00:07:23 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-13 04:21:34 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2025 4:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-11 14:41:38 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD  correctly simulated by HHH cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That claim has already shown to be false. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing above shows that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH does not return 0. If it does DD also 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returns 0.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we are referring to the above DD 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated by HHH and not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to get away with changing the subject 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to some other DD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhere else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as one that calls a non-aborting version 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then anyone with sufficient knowledge of C 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming knows that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance of DD shown above simulated by any 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding instance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of HHH can possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, then that corresponding (by what?) HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn’t a decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am focusing on the isomorphic notion of a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination analyzer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (There are other deciders that are not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination analysers.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A simulating termination analyzer correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rejects any input that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must be aborted to prevent its own non-termination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in particular itself is not such an input, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because we *know* that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it halts, because it is a decider. You can’t have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your cake and eat it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not even using the confusing term "halts".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead I am using in its place "terminates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What’s confusing about „halts”? I find it clearer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it does not imply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an ambiguous „abnormal termination”. How does HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate DD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminating abnormally, then? Why doesn’t it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terminate abnormally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can substitute the term: the input DD to HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not need to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aborted, because the simulated decider terminates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every simulated input that must be aborted to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevent the non-termination of HHH is stipulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be correctly rejected by HHH as non-terminating.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A very strange and invalid stipulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It merely means that the words do not have their 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ordinary meaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those two comments are not discussed below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless HHH(DD) aborts its simulation of DD itself 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That cannot be determined without examination of HHH, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is not in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scope of OP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have given everyone here all of the complete source
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code for a few years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> True but irrelevant. OP did not specify that HHH means 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that particular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every post that I have been talking about for two or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more years has referred to variations of that same code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> OP had a pointer of that code but didn's state that that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> code is a part
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the problem. OP did not spacify any range for variation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have only been talking about variations of the same code
>>>>>>>>>>> as HHH(DD) for two years. Do you understand that one sentence?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I understnd the sentence except the word "variations". What is 
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> range of "variations"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good you are being completely reasonable.
>>>>>>>>> There are at least two algorithms the current
>>>>>>>>> one that was also the original one is easiest to
>>>>>>>>> understand. This algorithm essentially spots the
>>>>>>>>> equivalent of infinite recursion. The code provides
>>>>>>>>> all of the details.
>>>>>>>>>
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