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Path: ...!local-2.nntp.ord.giganews.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!local-4.nntp.ord.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 18:55:46 +0000 Subject: Re: vis-viva and vis-motrix Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity References: <Q3udnQ_BXvnebXX7nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@giganews.com> <66e96931$0$3271$426a74cc@news.free.fr> <Uj6dnY-qhbLyUHT7nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com> <7RycnbrrTfx70W37nZ2dnZfqnPYAAAAA@giganews.com> <79qcnSfIffhX_m37nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@giganews.com> <t72dnUjHGp9d8Wn7nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com> <66F478BF.7DAE@ix.netcom.com> <uWOdnegwverCXWn7nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com> <66F59C62.58E2@ix.netcom.com> <aSidnQ0zvNRkW2j7nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@giganews.com> <llpuokFgheaU9@mid.individual.net> <81WdnRHj5_sE5mX7nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@giganews.com> <lluqp8F93kcU1@mid.individual.net> From: Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:55:46 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <lluqp8F93kcU1@mid.individual.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <arWdnUygcaauaWf7nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com> Lines: 418 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-Trace: sv3-tQnZ7sn8DsUix0fAF5AYGQfwBaSf9qO1QF9zn6Sr/97OYbrCk/gkhP0HOxBVk529OeDBG70ynly56Pn!uZyF+e2V+JTgp6a/N+pC3+1wGu4m7sLrwXEofROCwcZBjagP12o/dbL+uFx7ALptrNX7m2HGAqPT X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 Bytes: 17624 On 09/29/2024 10:20 PM, Thomas Heger wrote: > Am Samstag000028, 28.09.2024 um 23:57 schrieb Ross Finlayson: >> On 09/28/2024 01:57 AM, Thomas Heger wrote: >>> Am Donnerstag000026, 26.09.2024 um 22:41 schrieb Ross Finlayson: >>>> On 09/26/2024 10:39 AM, The Starmaker wrote: >>>>> Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On 09/25/2024 01:55 PM, The Starmaker wrote: >>>>>>> Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 09/22/2024 11:37 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 09/22/2024 09:59 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 09/17/2024 11:41 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 09/17/2024 04:34 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Does anybody even bother to think about vis-viva versus vis- >>>>>>>>>>>>> motrix >>>>>>>>>>>>> anymore, with regards to conservation, momentum, inertia, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> energy, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and potential and impulse energy? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Of course not. These are obsolete distinctions, >>>>>>>>>>>> from a time when energy and momentum conservation was not >>>>>>>>>>>> corectly >>>>>>>>>>>> understood. >>>>>>>>>>>> The matter was put to rest by Christiaan Huygens >>>>>>>>>>>> by showing (for particle collisions) >>>>>>>>>>>> that momentum conservation and energy conservation >>>>>>>>>>>> are distinct conservation laws, that are both needed, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it usually considered at all that momentum and inertia >>>>>>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>>>>>>>> places with respect to resistance to change of motion and rest >>>>>>>>>>>>> respectively sort of back and forth in the theory since >>>>>>>>>>>>> antiquity? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Several times? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Au contraire, there is yet definition up, in the air, as it >>>>>>>>>>> were. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Find any reference to fictitious forces and for a theory >>>>>>>>>>> where the potential fields are what's real and the classical >>>>>>>>>>> field's just a projection to a perspective in the middle, >>>>>>>>>>> and anything at all to do with the plainly empirical or >>>>>>>>>>> tribological with regards to our grandly theoretical, >>>>>>>>>>> and one may find that the definitions of "inertia" and >>>>>>>>>>> "momentum" with regards to resistance to changes in motion >>>>>>>>>>> and resistance to changes in rest, as with regards to >>>>>>>>>>> weight and as with regards to heft, have rotated each >>>>>>>>>>> few hundred years, as with regards to the great schism >>>>>>>>>>> whence Newton's vis-motrix, as with regards to the vis-insita >>>>>>>>>>> and Leibnitz' vis-viva, as what for example can be read into >>>>>>>>>>> from the Wikipedia on conservation of _energy_ and conservation >>>>>>>>>>> of _momentum_ up to today, where for example, the >>>>>>>>>>> "infinitely- many >>>>>>>>>>> higher orders of theoretical acceleration are both formally >>>>>>>>>>> non-zero and vanishing" because "zero meters/second >>>>>>>>>>> equals infinity seconds/meter". >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So, for a true centrifugal, and quite all about the derivative >>>>>>>>>>> and anti-derivative as with regards to momentum, inertia, >>>>>>>>>>> and kinetic energy, in a theory what's of course >>>>>>>>>>> sum-of-histories >>>>>>>>>>> sum-of-potentials with least action and gradient, or sum-of- >>>>>>>>>>> potentials, >>>>>>>>>>> it is so that the various under-defined concepts of the plain >>>>>>>>>>> laws >>>>>>>>>>> of after Newton, are as yet un-defined, and there are a variety >>>>>>>>>>> of considerations as with regards to the multiplicities, or >>>>>>>>>>> these singularities, and the reciprocities, of these >>>>>>>>>>> projections. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So, some of these considerations as since "Mediaeval Times", >>>>>>>>>>> help reflect that Einstein's not alone in his, 'attack on >>>>>>>>>>> Newton'. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Moment and Motion: a story of momentum >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH-Gh- >>>>>>>>>> bBb7M&list=PLb7rLSBiE7F4eHy5vT61UYFR7_BIhwcOY >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Theories and principles, momentum and sum-of-histories >>>>>>>>>> sum-of-potentials, conservation, momentum and inertia >>>>>>>>>> and energy, fields and forces, Einstein's mechanics, >>>>>>>>>> conservation of energy and conservation of momentum, >>>>>>>>>> potential and fictitious and causal and virtual, mv, mv^2, >>>>>>>>>> ordinary and extra-ordinary in the differential and inverses, >>>>>>>>>> the standard curriculum and the super-standard, momentum >>>>>>>>>> in definition, classical exposition, Bayes rule and a law of >>>>>>>>>> large >>>>>>>>>> numbers, law(s) of large numbers and not-Bayesian expectations, >>>>>>>>>> numerical methods in derivations, uniqueness results later >>>>>>>>>> distinctness results, law(s) of large numbers and continuity, >>>>>>>>>> complete and replete, induction and limits, partials and limits, >>>>>>>>>> the paleo-classical, platforms and planks, mass and weight >>>>>>>>>> and heft, gravitational force and g-forces, measure and >>>>>>>>>> matching measure, relativity and a difference between >>>>>>>>>> rest and motion, heft, resistance to gravity, ideals and >>>>>>>>>> billiard mechanics, wider ideals, Wallis and Huygens, >>>>>>>>>> Nayfeh's nonlinear oscillations, addition of vectors, >>>>>>>>>> observables and ideals, DesCartes' and Kelvin's vortices, >>>>>>>>>> black holes and white holes, waves and optics, Euler, both >>>>>>>>>> vis-motrix and vis-viva, d'Alembert's principle, Lagrange, >>>>>>>>>> potential as integral over space, Maupertuis and Gauss >>>>>>>>>> and least action and least constraint, Hamilton, >>>>>>>>>> Hamiltonians and Bayesians, Jacobi, Navier and Stokes >>>>>>>>>> and Cauchy and Saint Venant and Maxwell, statistical >>>>>>>>>> mechanics and entropy and least action, ideal and real, >>>>>>>>>> mechanical reduction and severe abstraction, ions and >>>>>>>>>> fields and field theory, wave mechanics and virtual particles, >>>>>>>>>> ideals and the ideal, the classical and monistic holism, paleo- >>>>>>>>>> nouveau. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Much like the theories of "fall", "shadow", or >>>>>>>>> "push" gravity, or the "shadow" or "umbral" >>>>>>>>> gravity and for theories of real supergravity, >>>>>>>>> as after Fatio and LeSage, as of theories of >>>>>>>>> "pull" or "suck" gravity of Newton and the >>>>>>>>> "rubber-sheet" or "down" gravity of Einstein, >>>>>>>>> then the theories of vortices like DesCartes >>>>>>>>> and Kelvin, and others, help reflect on the >>>>>>>>> rectilinear and curvilinear, and flat and round, >>>>>>>>> as with regards to deconstructive accounts of >>>>>>>>> usual unstated assumptions and the severe >>>>>>>>> abstraction and mechanical reduction, in as >>>>>>>>> with regards to modern theories of mechanics. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Zero meters per second is infinity seconds per meter. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You know, zero meters per second is infinity seconds per meter, >>>>>>>> and, any change of anything in motion has associated the >>>>>>>> infinitely-many higher orders of acceleration, and, >>>>>>>> it's rather underdefined and even undefined yet very >>>>>>>> obviously clearly is an aspect of the mathematical model, >>>>>>>> that Galileo's and Newton's laws of motion, sort of are >>>>>>>> only a "principal branch" as it were, and, don't quite suffice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course anything that would add infinitely-many higher >>>>>>>> orders of acceleration mathematically to the theory, >>>>>>>> of mechanics, the theory, would have to result being >>>>>>>> exactly being the same as Galilean and Newtonian, >>>>>>>> "in the limit", and for example with regards to >>>>>>>> Lorentzians and these kinds of things. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's sort of similar with adding more and better >>>>>>>> infinities and infinitesimals to mathematics. >>>>>>>> The continuous dynamics of continuous motion >>>>>>>> though and its mechanics, is a few layers above ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========