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From: mpsilvertone@yahoo.com (HarryLime)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: My Father's House / gjd (for new comments)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2025 21:53:29 +0000
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On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 21:36:58 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 21:23:03 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 24 Feb 2025 19:57:31 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 8:50:21 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 11:02:16 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 0:44:06 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 17:11:19 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 18:28:12 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 14:12:44 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 20:15:36 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 19:31:54 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 11:29:25 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Father's House
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is my father's house, although
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They said it would be quite all right
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be so many other places.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While watching my friends run and play
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To read or play alone, and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here it is, MFH.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for reposting this poem of mine, Will. While it's true that it
>>>>>>>>>>> has been discussed a lot over the years, it also true that at least one
>>>>>>>>>>> person wants to discuss it now; and this would be the appropriate place
>>>>>>>>>>> to move those comments, rather than leaving them scattered all over the
>>>>>>>>>>> group. So let's start with this one:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>>>>>>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> You wrote a "mostly autobiographical" poem detailing the abuses you
>>>>>>>>>>>> suffered as a child, George.  And you're demonstrating your pathological
>>>>>>>>>>>> obsession with lying in your trio of denials, listed above.
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=15801&group=rec.arts.poems
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> HarryLiar has manufactured yet another fake quote; I have never called
>>>>>>>>>>> this poem "mostly autobiographical" or autobiographical in many ways. I
>>>>>>>>>>> have distinctly told him in the past that, while some of the speaker's
>>>>>>>>>>> memories were based on my own childhood experiences, not all of them
>>>>>>>>>>> were; I was using them in a work of creative fiction, not an
>>>>>>>>>>> autobiography of any kind. So he lied and made up a fake quote to
>>>>>>>>>>> support his lie.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I haven't the time to go searching for the exact quote, but you had
>>>>>>>>>> initially maintained that it was "mostly autobiographical" or "mostly
>>>>>>>>>> based on your childhood," or similar words expressing the same thing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you don't have time, get your NastyGoon to search for it. In this
>>>>>>>>> case I have to call your bullshit. You claimed the poem was
>>>>>>>>> "autobiographical", and I tried to explain to you the difference between
>>>>>>>>> creative literature and autobiography - repeatedly. You believe it's
>>>>>>>>> autobiographical because you said it was autobiographical, and for no
>>>>>>>>> other reason.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> George, George, George... no autobiography is 100% accurate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I've told you before, I don't think the difference between creative
>>>>>>> literature and autobiography is merely one of "accuracy." The difference
>>>>>>> is that in the latter one is trying to be as accurate and comprehensive
>>>>>>> as possible: to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
>>>>>>> truth. Whereas in the former, one is selectively recreating an
>>>>>>> experience, using experiences that reinforce the story.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which has little to no bearing on one's reading a poem as as
>>>>>> psychoanalytical analysis of its author.  An autobiography would
>>>>>> invariably be colored by its author's emotional feelings, and
>>>>>> selectively limited by their choices as to what to include, and how to
>>>>>> present it if included.
>>>>>
>>>>> Df course a biographer is going to be selective; who would want to read
>>>>> a biography that included an account of every dump their subject took in
>>>>> his life? The difference is that a biographer limits (or should limit)
>>>>> what they include to what actually happened to the subject, while a
>>>>> creative work (which has a made-up subject (has no such restraint).
>>>>
>>>> You're trying to change the terms, in order to change the meanings,
>>>> George.
>>>>
>>>> How many times do I have to tell you that high school debate team
>>>> tactics are not going to work here?
>>>>
>>>> You have stated, repeatedly, that you poem was based for the most part
>>>> on your own childhood.  The unnamed narrator may not be George Dance,
>>>> but the events he is describing in the flashback portion of the poem are
>>>> similar to your own childhood experiences.
>>>>
>>>> Your poem is, therefore, at least semi-autobiographical.
>>>>
>>>> A semi-autobiographical poem can still contain purely fictional elements
>>>> (such as the narrator's psychiatric care, his revisiting his childhood
>>>> home, etc.), but it is much more grounded in reality than your
>>>> description of "creative fiction," which "has a made-up subject" and "no
>>>> such restraint (as having to limit itself to what really happened to its
>>>> subject).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The only difference is that in an autobiography, the author is
>>>>>> (supposedly) attempting to be unbiased, where as in creative literature,
>>>>>> the author is allowing his biases to take center stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, that's not a difference. Biographies (including autobiographies) can
>>>>> reflect their author's prejudices; one wouldn't expect a biography of
>>>>> Hitler or Amin to be "unbiased" or try for equal balance. The
>>>>> difference, to repeat, is that a biographer is (or should be) limited to
>>>>> real, verifiable events - it's an account of what really happened -
>>>>> whereas a work of creative literature has no such restraint.
>>>>
>>>> But I am not calling your poem autobiographical, George.  I am calling
>>>> it "semi-autobiographical."  There is a difference between the two, as
>>>> well.  An autobiographical poem would have to be based entirely on fact.
>>>>  A semi-autobiographical poem would only have to be partially based on
>>>> fact.  Since your poem is partially based on fact, it is a
>>>> semi-autobiographical work.
>>>>
>>>>>> Both provide
>>>>>> glimpses into the author as a person; and some would argue that creative
>>>>>> literature provides a deeper glimpse as it is allowing the reader to
>>>>>> share in the author's emotional responses to their experiences (whereas
>>>>>> the former is merely relating said experiences, with the cold, clinical
>>>>>> detachment of a reporter).
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, every literary work provides some glimpse into the author. That
>>>>> does not mean that every literary work is a "biography" of someone.
>>>>
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