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From: wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Simulation vs. Execution in the Halting Problem
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2025 22:45:35 +0800
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On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 09:40 -0500, olcott wrote:
> On 6/11/2025 9:36 AM, wij wrote:
> > On Wed, 2025-06-11 at 09:20 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > On 6/11/2025 3:56 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > On 2025-06-10 16:51:49 +0000, olcott said:
> > > >=20
> > > > > On 6/10/2025 2:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > On 2025-06-08 05:38:26 +0000, olcott said:
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > On 6/8/2025 12:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 2025-06-07 13:51:33 +0000, olcott said:
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > On 6/7/2025 3:13 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-06 16:17:48 +0000, olcott said:
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > On 6/6/2025 3:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-04 15:59:10 +0000, olcott said:
> > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/4/2025 2:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2025-06-03 20:00:51 +0000, olcott said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/3/2025 12:59 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2025-06-03 at 16:38 +0100, Mike Ter=
ry wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 03/06/2025 13:45, dbush wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6/2/2025 10:58 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if presented with /direct observ=
ations/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > contradicting his position, PO can (w=
ill) just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > invent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > new magical thinking that only he is =
smart enough to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand, in order to somehow justi=
fy his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > busted intuitions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My favorite is that the directly execut=
ed D(D) doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > halt even though it looks like it does:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/24/24 19:18, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0> The directly executed D(D=
) reaches a final state and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > exits normally.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0> BECAUSE ANOTHER ASPECT OF=
 THE SAME COMPUTATION HAS
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BEEN ABORTED,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0> Thus meeting the correct =
non-halting criteria if any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0> a computation must be abo=
rted to prevent its infinite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > execution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0> then this computation DOE=
S NOT HALT (even if it looks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like it does).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right - magical thinking.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PO simply cannot clearly think through wh=
at's going on,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > due to the multiple levels involved.=C2=
=A0 In his
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > head they all become a mush of confustion=
s, but the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mystery here is why PO does not /realise/=
 that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > he can't think his way through it?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I try something that's beyond me, I =
soon realise I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not up to it. =C2=A0Somehow PO tries, get=
s into
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a total muddle, and concludes "My underst=
anding of this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes beyond that of everybody else, due t=
o
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my powers of unrivalved concentration equ=
alled by almost
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody on the planet, and my ability to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminate extraneous complexity".=C2=A0 H=
ow did PO ever start
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > down this path of delusions?=C2=A0 Not th=
at that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > matters one iota... :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People seem to keep addressing the logic of=
 the implement
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of POOH, but it does not matter how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > H or D are implemented, because:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. POOH is not about the Halting Problem (n=
o logical
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > connection)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Likewise ZFC was not about what is now called=
 naive set theory.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To a large extent it is. Both are intended to d=
escribe those
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sets that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > were tought to be usefult to think about. But t=
he naive set
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > theory failed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > because it is inconsistent. However, ZF exclude=
s some sets
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > people want to consider, e.g., the universal se=
t, Quine's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > atom. There is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > no agreement whether do not satisfy the axiom o=
f choice and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > its various
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > consequences should be included or excluded, so=
 both ZF and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ZFC are used.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Quine's atom is nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > > No, it is not. It is a set that one can assume to e=
xist or not
> > > > > > > > > > > > to exist.
> > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urelement#Quine_atoms
> > > > > > > > > > > It is the same as every person that is their own fath=
er.
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > No, it is not the same. Being of ones own father is imp=
ossible
> > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > of the say the material world works. Imaginary things l=
ike sets
> > > > > > > > > > can be
> > > > > > > > > > imagined to work wichever way one wants to imagine, tho=
ugh a
> > > > > > > > > > consitent
> > > > > > > > > > imagination is more useful.
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > If that was true then one could imagine the
> > > > > > > > > coherent set of properties of a square circle.
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > One can, much like you can imagine the coherent set of prop=
erties of
> > > > > > > > an impossible decider.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > *CAN'T POSSIBLY REACH A FINAL STATE DOES ESTABLISH NOT HALTIN=
G*
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Depends on what exactly your "can" and "possibly" mean. Anyway,=
 DDD does
> > > > > > reach its final state, so its wrong to say that it can't.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Why do people always have to be damned liars and change
> > > > > my words and then dishonestly apply their rebuttal to
> > > > > these changed words.
> > > >=20
> > > > If you don't tell why you do so why would anyone else?
> > > >=20
> > >=20
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