Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.quux.org!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH diverges from DDD emulated by HHH1--- BEST
 ONE
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 22:02:14 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <b71e0886124c2f8ab25cf316517d32881cf353bc@i2pn2.org>
References: <101khcl$3bfvj$6@dont-email.me> <101o96g$db96$3@dont-email.me>
 <101ob1t$hd6o$3@dont-email.me> <101obrf$hlr6$1@dont-email.me>
 <101ocan$hd6o$6@dont-email.me> <101ochl$i3m6$1@dont-email.me>
 <101oda2$hd6o$8@dont-email.me> <101oe1m$i3m6$3@dont-email.me>
 <101oee0$hd6o$9@dont-email.me> <101oeik$i3m6$4@dont-email.me>
 <101ofvi$inkg$1@dont-email.me> <101pask$pv5r$1@dont-email.me>
 <101porr$ta6v$1@dont-email.me> <101qb4p$11sr2$1@dont-email.me>
 <101qbtj$11qlg$1@dont-email.me> <101qc32$11sr2$3@dont-email.me>
 <101qhst$13bo7$1@dont-email.me> <101qicm$11sr2$4@dont-email.me>
 <101qjki$13i0e$1@dont-email.me> <101qn7s$14gq1$1@dont-email.me>
 <101qnp3$14gff$1@dont-email.me> <101qo1g$14gq1$2@dont-email.me>
 <101qoia$14gff$2@dont-email.me> <101qp3h$14gq1$3@dont-email.me>
 <101qqn5$14gff$4@dont-email.me> <101qrrc$14gq1$4@dont-email.me>
 <101qsfp$15bg8$1@dont-email.me> <101r4f3$1asab$1@dont-email.me>
 <101r6be$1adut$4@dont-email.me> <101v3lk$2c3ca$1@dont-email.me>
 <101v6df$2c1iv$4@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 02:27:52 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="3619576"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <101v6df$2c1iv$4@dont-email.me>
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0

On 6/6/25 12:53 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 6/6/2025 11:06 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>> On 05/06/2025 05:27, olcott wrote:
>>> On 6/4/2025 10:55 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>> On 05/06/2025 02:39, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 6/4/2025 8:28 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 9:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 7:41 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/4/2025 8:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Show me this side-by-side trace and I will point out your mistake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> See below, which shows that the simulations performed by HHH and 
>>>>>>>> HHH1 are identical up to the point that HHH aborts, as you have 
>>>>>>>> agreed on the record.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> False.  The correct trace is the one I posted, which shows all 
>>>>>> levels of emulation performed by HHH and HHH1.  See the 
>>>>>> corrections I made to your comments
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not supposed to do that.
>>>>
>>>> Are you saying it's not supposed to include /nested/ emulations?  It 
>>>> is perfectly sensible to include nested emulations.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It can include nested simulations yet nested
>>> simulations are in a hierarchy thus not side-by-side.
>>> A side-by-side analysis must be side-by-side.
>>>
>>
>> Hierarchies can be compared side-by-side.  In the case of these 
>> traces, the hierarchy can be "flattened" into one stream of nested 
>> simulations. You do this yourself every time you present one of your 
>> nested simulation traces.  Such a trace should include a simulation 
>> depth (or equivalent) for each entry.
>>
>> Two nested simulation traces can easily be presented side-by-side for 
>> comparisson.  You are just trying to divert attention from your own 
>> failings to properly understand the requirements.
>>
> 
> *From the execution trace of HHH1(DDD) shown below*
> DDD emulated by HHH1              DDD emulated by HHH
> [00002183] push ebp               [00002183] push ebp
> [00002184] mov ebp,esp            [00002184] mov ebp,esp
> [00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD    [00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD
> [0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH    [0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH
> *HHH1 emulates DDD once then HHH emulates DDD once, these match*
> 
> *Then HHH emulates itself emulating DDD, HHH1 NEVER DOES THIS*

Because the correct emulation of the input doesn't call for this to be 
done, and the identity of the emulator doesn't affect the defintion of a 
correct emulation.

That fact that NONE of your traces actually show a correct emulation, 
and this has been pointed out, just shows that all of the "data" is just 
lies.

> *Then HHH emulates itself emulating DDD, HHH1 NEVER DOES THIS*
> *Then HHH emulates itself emulating DDD, HHH1 NEVER DOES THIS*
> *Then HHH emulates itself emulating DDD, HHH1 NEVER DOES THIS*
> 
> DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself
> [00002183] push ebp      ;
> [00002184] mov ebp,esp   ;
> [00002186] push 00002183 ; DDD
> [0000218b] call 000015c3 ; HHH
> =================================================================
> 
> _DDD()
> [00002183] 55             push ebp
> [00002184] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
> [00002186] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
> [0000218b] e833f4ffff     call 000015c3 ; call HHH
> [00002190] 83c404         add esp,+04
> [00002193] 5d             pop ebp
> [00002194] c3             ret
> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002194]
> 
> _main()
> [000021a3] 55             push ebp
> [000021a4] 8bec           mov ebp,esp
> [000021a6] 6883210000     push 00002183 ; push DDD
> [000021ab] e843f3ffff     call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
> [000021b0] 83c404         add esp,+04
> [000021b3] 33c0           xor eax,eax
> [000021b5] 5d             pop ebp
> [000021b6] c3             ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [000021b6]
> 
>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>   address   address   data      code       language
>   ========  ========  ========  ========== =============
> <main is executed>
> [000021a3][0010382d][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; main()
> [000021a4][0010382d][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; main()
> [000021a6][00103829][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
> [000021ab][00103825][000021b0] e843f3ffff call 000014f3 ; call HHH1
> </main is executed>
> 
> New slave_stack at:1038d1
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138d9
> 
> <DDD emulated by HHH1>
> [00002183][001138c9][001138cd] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of HHH1
> [00002184][001138c9][001138cd] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of HHH1
> [00002186][001138c5][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
> [0000218b][001138c1][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
> </DDD emulated by HHH1>
> 
> New slave_stack at:14e2f9
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e301
> 
> <DDD emulated by HHH>
> [00002183][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of HHH[0]
> [00002184][0015e2f1][0015e2f5] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of HHH[0]
> [00002186][0015e2ed][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
> [0000218b][0015e2e9][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
> <DDD emulated by HHH>
> 
> New slave_stack at:198d21  DDD emulated by HHH
> *This is the beginning of the divergence of the behavior*
> *HHH is emulating itself emulating DDD, HHH1 never does that*
> 
> <DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself>
> [00002183][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 55         push ebp      ; DDD of HHH[1]
> [00002184][001a8d19][001a8d1d] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; DDD of HHH[1]
> [00002186][001a8d15][00002183] 6883210000 push 00002183 ; push DDD
> [0000218b][001a8d11][00002190] e833f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH
> </DDD emulated by HHH emulating itself>
> 
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
> HHH returns to caller
> 
> <DDD emulated by HHH1>
> [00002190][001138c9][001138cd] 83c404     add esp,+04 ; DDD of HHH1
> [00002193][001138cd][000015a8] 5d         pop ebp     ; DDD of HHH1
> [00002194][001138d1][0003a980] c3         ret         ; DDD of HHH1
> </DDD emulated by HHH1>
> 
> <main is executed>
> [000021b0][0010382d][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04 ; main()
> [000021b3][0010382d][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax ; main()
> [000021b5][00103831][00000018] 5d         pop ebp     ; main()
> [000021b6][00103835][00000000] c3         ret         ; main()
> </main is executed>
> Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages
> 
>