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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: HHH(DD) --- COMPUTE ACTUAL MAPPING FROM INPUT TO OUTPUT --- Using
 Finite String Transformations
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2025 06:53:35 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 4/23/25 11:40 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/23/2025 10:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 4/23/2025 7:31 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>> On 23/04/2025 16:38, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 4/23/2025 10:28 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>> On 23/04/2025 10:02, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 22.apr.2025 om 21:50 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 4/22/2025 2:30 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 22.apr.2025 om 21:14 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/2025 1:10 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op 22.apr.2025 om 18:38 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> a function is computable if there exists an algorithm
>>>>>>>>>>> that can do the job of the function, i.e. given an input
>>>>>>>>>>> of the function domain it can return the corresponding output.
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_function
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Turing Machines inputs <are> finite strings, and
>>>>>>>>>>> finite string transformation rules <are> applied to
>>>>>>>>>>> these finite strings to derive corresponding outputs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And it has been proven that no finite string transformations 
>>>>>>>>>> are possible that report the halting behaviour for all inputs 
>>>>>>>>>> that specify a correct program. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> int sum(int x, int y) { return x + y; }
>>>>>>>>> Only when people stupid assume the same thing as
>>>>>>>>> sum(3,2) should return the sum of 5 + 3.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Therefore HHH should report on the actual input, the finite 
>>>>>>>> string that describes a halting program. Not on the hypothetical 
>>>>>>>> input that does not halt, because it is based on a hypothetical 
>>>>>>>> HHH that does not abort.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why do you maintain that HHH should process the hypothetical 
>>>>>>>> input instead of the actual input.
>>>>>>>> Do you really believe that 3+2 equals 5+3?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have proven that the directly executed DD and DD
>>>>>>> emulated by HHH according to the semantics of the
>>>>>>> x86 language have a different set of state changes
>>>>>>> many hundreds of times for several years.
>>>>>> You never showed a proof. You only repeated a dream. You are 
>>>>>> dreaming many years without any logic. You failed to show the 
>>>>>> first state change where the direct execution is different from 
>>>>>> the simulation. You only showed an erroneous HHH that fails to 
>>>>>> reach the end of the simulation of a halting program.
>>>>>
>>>>> Worse than this, on more than one occasion I've actually posted 
>>>>> traces of computation DDD(DDD) executed directly and simulated by 
>>>>> HHH side by side.  Both traces were of course /identical/, up to 
>>>>> the point where HHH stops simulating. 
>>>>
>>>> *Factually incorrect* (You are usually very careful about these things)
>>>> The call to HHH(DD) from the directly executed DD returns.
>>>> The call to HHH(DD) from DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly return.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ...because HHH stops simulating before reaching that step in the 
>>> computation.  Note that I said
>>>
>>> MT:  Both traces were of course /identical/,
>>>       *up to the point where HHH stops simulating*
>>>
>>> So I was factually correct.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike.
>>>
>>
>> It *is not* up to the point where HHH stops simulating.
>>
>> It is up to the point where the simulated versus directly
>> executed calls HHH(DD).
>>
>> This call immediately from the directly executed DD and
>> cannot possibility return from DD emulated by HHH according
>> to the finite string transformation rules of the x86 language.
>>
> 
> According to the finite string transformation rules of the x86 language.
> The call from the directly executed DD to HHH(DD) immediately returns.
> The call from DD emulated by HHH to HHH(DD) cannot possibility return.


According to the rules of the x86 language, your provided input is 
invalid as it references code outside the input. PERIOD.

If you add in the code for HHH to the input, then the rules of the x86 
language say that the CORRECT simulation of DD will return, as it calls 
an HHH that will seen to simulate its input for a while, abort, and then 
return 0.

Nothing in the x86 language itself says that the call to HHH simulates 
its input. That fact only come from actually observing what happens when 
you simulate/execute it. It is, in effect, emperical knowledge, only 
obtained by watching HHH behave.

> 
> 
>> HHH doesn't stop simulating DD until one recursive emulation
>> later on.
>>
>>
>>
> 
>