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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Every sufficiently competent C programmer knows --- Semantic
 Property reiterated
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2025 23:03:50 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 3/13/25 10:08 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/13/2025 6:09 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/13/25 12:09 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/13/2025 10:44 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/03/2025 18:23, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/03/2025 17:42, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>> Finally, if you really want to see the actual HHH code, its in the
>>>>>>> halt7.c file (along with DDD) that PO provides links to from time to
>>>>>>> time.  However it's not very illuminating due to bugs/design
>>>>>>> errors/misunderstandings which only serve to obfuscate PO's 
>>>>>>> errors in
>>>>>>> thinking.
>>>>>> [I've now seen the code. Oh deary deary me.]
>>>>>
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for a spirited attempt to be cogent - or at least as 
>>>>>> cogent as
>>>>>> it is possible to be in the circumstances!
>>>>>> I think PO's first step must be to demonstrate that HHH() correctly
>>>>>> diagnoses some easy functions, such as these:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not really necessary - PO is not trying or claiming to have a (full)
>>>>> halt decider.
>>>>>
>>>>> Originally his claim was that he had a program which worked for the
>>>>> counter-example TM used in the common (e.g. Linz book) proof.
>>>>
>>>> That, of course, depends on the way the wind's blowing.  For example in
>>>> 2020:
>>>>
>>>>    "The non-halting decider that I defined accepts any and all
>>>>    non-halting inputs and rejects any and all halting inputs."
>>>>
>>>> But then he retreated to the "once case" argument again until:
>>>>
>>>> Me: "Recent posts have said that you really do claim to have a halting
>>>>      decider.  Have you extended your claim or was that a
>>>>      misunderstanding?"
>>>>
>>>> PO: "I really do have a halting decider."
>>>>
>>>>> ... Such a
>>>>> program is impossible, as Linz and others prove, so having a 
>>>>> program H and
>>>>> its corresponding "counter-example" D, such that H correctly 
>>>>> decides D,
>>>>> would certainly show that the Linz proof is wrong.  His claim was 
>>>>> always
>>>>> that he had "refuted the HP proof", or sometimes that he had 
>>>>> refuted the HP
>>>>> theorem itself although he's been told dozens of times that there 
>>>>> are many
>>>>> alternative proofs for the result.
>>>>
>>>> Way back in 2004 he was sure that:
>>>>
>>>>    "I have correctly refuted each and every mechanism by which the
>>>>    [halting theorem] has been proven to be true. I have not shown that
>>>>    solving the Halting Problem is possible, merely refuted every proof
>>>>    that it is impossible."
>>>>
>>>> I expect a publication anytime.  20 years is just about enough to get
>>>> all the details right.
>>>>
>>>>> [As it turned out, PO's D(D) halted when run under his x86utm 
>>>>> environment,
>>>>> while H(D,D) which is required to return the halting status of 
>>>>> computation
>>>>> D(D) returned 0 (=non-halting).  That is exactly what the Linz proofs
>>>>> claim!]
>>>>
>>>> We must always remember that PO has re-defined what it means for the
>>>> answer to be correct:
>>>>
>>>> Me: "Here's the key question: do you still assert that H(P,P) == false
>>>>      is the "correct" answer even though P(P) halts?"
>>>>
>>>> PO: "Yes that is the correct answer even though P(P) halts."
>>>>
>>>> He's been quite clear about it:
>>>>
>>>>    "When we make the single change that I suggest the halting problem
>>>>    ceases to be impossible to solve because this revised question is 
>>>> not
>>>>    subject to pathological self-reference."
>>>>
>>>>    "This transforms an undecidable problem into a decidable problem."
>>>>
>>>> I hope you forgive me just chipping in with stuff you know perfectly
>>>> well, but I thought I'd just give some background as Richard is a new
>>>> participant and my comments fit better with your post than his.
>>>>
>>>
>>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>
>>> int DD()
>>> {
>>>    int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>    if (Halt_Status)
>>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>>    return Halt_Status;
>>> }
>>>
>>> When N steps of DD are correctly emulated by
>>> any HHH then each DD cannot possibly reach
>>> its own final state and terminate normally.
>>
>> No, the PARTIAL EMULATION done by HHH can't reach that point, 
> 
> But a complete emulation can?
> 

Yes, but an HHH that gives an answer doesn't do one, due to the 
pathological design of the template used to build DD to the HHH it calls 
(which is the only HHH that can exist, or you have violated the basic 
rules of programing and logic).

We have two basic cases,

1) if HHH does the partial emulation you describe, then the complete 
emulation of DD will see that DD call HHH, and it will emulate its input 
for a while, then abort and theu return 0 to DD which will then halt.

2) if HHH does not abort its emulation, then when we look at what HHH 
does when run, it will just run forever, and that make this version of 
DD non-halting (being based a different HHH, means it is a different 
program and thus can have different behavior) but this HHH is not 
correct in saying that, as it will never say that, as it is stuck in 
that infinite emulation.


You just don't seem to understand that HHH can't be two different things 
at once, because you seem to have an insane mental block on that concept.