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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Turing Machine computable functions apply finite string
 transformations to inputs
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2025 16:41:49 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 4/26/25 1:29 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 4/26/2025 12:16 PM, joes wrote:
>> Am Sat, 26 Apr 2025 11:22:42 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>> On 4/25/2025 5:09 PM, joes wrote:
>>>> Am Fri, 25 Apr 2025 16:46:11 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>> On 4/25/2025 11:54 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/25/25 12:31 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Once we understand that Turing computable functions are only allowed
>>>>>>> to derived their outputs by applying finite string operations to
>>>>>>> their inputs then my claim about the behavior of DD that HHH must
>>>>>>> report on is completely proven.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Youy have your words wrong. They are only ABLE to use finite
>>>>>> algorithms of finite string operations. The problem they need to
>>>>>> solve do not need to be based on that, but on just general mappings
>>>>>> of finite strings to finite strings that might not be described by a
>>>>>> finite algorithm.
>>>>>> The mapping is computable, *IF* we can find a finite algorith of
>>>>>> transformation steps to make that mapping.
>>>>>>
>>>>> There are no finite string operations that can be applied to the input
>>>>> to HHH(DD) that derive the behavior of of the directly executed DD
>>>>> thus DD is forbidden from reporting on this behavior.
>>>
>>>> Yes, there are, the operations that the processor executes. How did you
>>>> think it works?
>>>>
>>> When you try to actually show the actual steps instead of being stuck in
>>> utterly baseless rebuttal mode YOU FAIL!
>> Which x86 semantics does a processor violate when deriving a halting
>> state from the string description of DD?
>>
>>> When any HHH emulates DD according to the finite string transformation
>>> rules specified by the x86 language (the line of demarcation between
>>> correct and incorrect emulation) no emulated DD can possibly reach its
>>> final halt state and halt.
>> Yes, where is that line?
>>
> 
> Everyone claims that HHH violates the rules
> of the x86 language yet no one can point out
> which rules are violated because they already
> know that HHH does not violate any rules and
> they are only playing trollish head games.

The rule is that the end of EVERY instruction, other than HLT 
instruction, that the processor will then execute the instruction 
pointed to by the PC register.

In other words, the processor continues executing until it reaches a 
stop instruction.


> 
> _DD()
> [00002133] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
> [00002134] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
> [00002136] 51         push ecx      ; make space for local
> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD
> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD)
> [00002141] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [00002144] 8945fc     mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00002147] 837dfc00   cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [0000214b] 7402       jz 0000214f
> [0000214d] ebfe       jmp 0000214d
> [0000214f] 8b45fc     mov eax,[ebp-04]
> [00002152] 8be5       mov esp,ebp
> [00002154] 5d         pop ebp
> [00002155] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155]
> 
> DD emulated by HHH according to the finite
> string transformation rules of the x86 language
> does emulate [00002133] through [0000213c] which
> causes HHH to emulate itself emulating DD again
> in recursive emulation repeating the cycle of
> [00002133] through [0000213c].
>