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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: My Father's House / gjd (for new comments)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2025 05:07:22 +0000
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On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 4:25:14 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 19:06:31 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Feb 2025 4:18:39 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>> Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 19:58:55 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>
>>>>>> Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My Father's House
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is my father's house, although
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They said it would be quite all right
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be so many other places.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While watching my friends run and play
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To read or play alone, and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here it is, MFH.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for reposting this poem of mine, Will. While it's true that it
>>>>>>>>>>> has been discussed a lot over the years, it also true that at least one
>>>>>>>>>>> person wants to discuss it now; and this would be the appropriate place
>>>>>>>>>>> to move those comments, rather than leaving them scattered all over the
>>>>>>>>>>> group. So let's start with this one:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>>>>>>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 13:06:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you lie so much, George?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (That's a rhetorical question, as you've already intimated that your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathological lying stems from you having been abused as a child.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, Lying Michael: I have never said, or even "intimated" (!) that I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pathological, lying, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "abused as a child".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You wrote a "mostly autobiographical" poem detailing the abuses you
>>>>>>>>>>>> suffered as a child, George.  And you're demonstrating your pathological
>>>>>>>>>>>> obsession with lying in your trio of denials, listed above.
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=15801&group=rec.arts.poems
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> HarryLiar has manufactured yet another fake quote; I have never called
>>>>>>>>>>> this poem "mostly autobiographical" or autobiographical in many ways. I
>>>>>>>>>>> have distinctly told him in the past that, while some of the speaker's
>>>>>>>>>>> memories were based on my own childhood experiences, not all of them
>>>>>>>>>>> were; I was using them in a work of creative fiction, not an
>>>>>>>>>>> autobiography of any kind. So he lied and made up a fake quote to
>>>>>>>>>>> support his lie.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The poem is meant to be a dramatic monolgue, in the style of Browning
>>>>>>>>>>> (His "My Last Duchess" is a good example), meant to get inside the
>>>>>>>>>>> psychology of a  speaker or persona. The speaker may have experienced
>>>>>>>>>>> his childhood as "abuse" - HarryLiar calls it that but the speaker
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't. The memories of it, though, have stayed on his mind, and he
>>>>>>>>>>> wants to get rid of those memories (symbolized by burning down the house
>>>>>>>>>>> at the end).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's deliberately left to the reader to decide if the speaker actually
>>>>>>>>>>> had been abused by his father or not. I did structure it, for effect,
>>>>>>>>>>> from the least to the most abusive-seeming experiences; from having to
>>>>>>>>>>> use a back door and remove his shoes to enter the house, to doing
>>>>>>>>>>> household chores, to doing garden work in the summertime, to not being
>>>>>>>>>>> allowed to use some of the furniture, to having to stay inside alone at
>>>>>>>>>>> night and be in bed early, to being subjected to corporal punishment.
>>>>>>>>>>> Adding them together like that, it's easy enough to conclude that the
>>>>>>>>>>> father had been abusive; but I'll point out that all of those events
>>>>>>>>>>> were things children commonly experienced 50-60 years ago, and that none
>>>>>>>>>>> of them were commonly considered abusive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As Karla Rogers often reminded us:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Try not to mistake the speaker in the poem with the writer of the
>>>>>>>>>> poem."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I'd noted in my post, Karla's oft-quoted adage (oft-quoted by you,
>>>>>>>>> that is), is simply incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My previous post explains why:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "In fact, Karla's oft-quoted adage aside, one can *never* fully separate
>>>>>>>>> the two.
>>>>>>>>> For instance, all of the characters in any author's fictional novel are
>>>>>>>>> going to represent some aspect of the author.  Every poem stems from its
>>>>>>>>> author's imagination... regardless of what external persons and/or
>>>>>>>>> events might have inspired it.  Every literary work is similar to a
>>>>>>>>> dream construct in that regard; and like a dream construct, can be
>>>>>>>>> analyzed by a psychologist, a literary critic, or even the average
>>>>>>>>> reader.  Since "My Father's House" was based to a large extent on your
>>>>>>>>> own childhood experiences, it literally begs for a psychoanalytical
>>>>>>>>> reading."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You dispute the wisdom of the mighty Karla Rogers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you trying to troll
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, you're the super troll, Pendragon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm here for the poetry.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're only here for the waffles.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While you're only here to lie and misrepresent, Harry.
>>>>
>>>> And so it goes.
>>>
>>>
>>> Are you denying that you posted each of the statements listed below,
>>
>> As part of a discussion with others.
>>
>> Context matters.
>
> Not in this case

Sure it does

> How does it matter whether you were discussing the local Waffle Houses
> with Zid in several different threads, or whether you launched several
> Waffle-related threads on your own?
>
> The point is that you were discussing Waffle Houses, repeatedly, in a
> newsgroup about poetry.

The same can be said about you right now.

😏

> Ergo, you were not here for the poetry (which you rarely discuss --

That's not true, I've been discussing the poetry of Robert Creeley for a
week now.

😏