Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: mpsilvertone@yahoo.com (HarryLime)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: My Father's House / gjd (for new comments)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2025 18:28:14 +0000
Organization: novaBBS
Message-ID: <bb840bbeb41b9fc3ec3c565ab91a8b9c@www.novabbs.com>
References: <97db0c3aeb33a7b97dc54cdfd5661e52@www.novabbs.com> <364e1f41f24b2570a2d6ce465ddb3e4d@www.novabbs.com> <4a4c22e8971494f4276397d499bef9f4@www.novabbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="3462371"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="9yNNWN6S3jCL2bQghupeZ7yt9QQF3aIiWb2guQimaIw";
User-Agent: Rocksolid Light
X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$rmmA161Al8MZxjGwo9mU.ewORfcHHzWw3oKBorePRM7XVI0moT1DC
X-Rslight-Posting-User: e04a750cbe04de725ce24a46bcc3953c76236e3b
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
Bytes: 25977
Lines: 490

On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 14:12:44 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 20:15:36 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 19:31:54 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 11:29:25 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>>>
>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My Father's House
>>>>>
>>>>> This is my father's house, although
>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>>>>> They said it would be quite all right
>>>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>>>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>>>>> To be so many other places.
>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>>>>
>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>>>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>>>>> While watching my friends run and play
>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>>>>
>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>>>>> To read or play alone, and then
>>>>>
>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~
>>>>> George J. Dance
>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>>>>
>>>> Here it is, MFH.
>>>
>>> Thank you for reposting this poem of mine, Will. While it's true that it
>>> has been discussed a lot over the years, it also true that at least one
>>> person wants to discuss it now; and this would be the appropriate place
>>> to move those comments, rather than leaving them scattered all over the
>>> group. So let's start with this one:
>>>
>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 13:06:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>> Why do you lie so much, George?
>>>>>> (That's a rhetorical question, as you've already intimated that your
>>>>>> pathological lying stems from you having been abused as a child.)
>>>>>
>>>>> No, Lying Michael: I have never said, or even "intimated" (!) that I was
>>>>> pathological, lying, or
>>>>> "abused as a child".
>>>
>>>> You wrote a "mostly autobiographical" poem detailing the abuses you
>>>> suffered as a child, George.  And you're demonstrating your pathological
>>>> obsession with lying in your trio of denials, listed above.
>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=15801&group=rec.arts.poems
>>>
>>> HarryLiar has manufactured yet another fake quote; I have never called
>>> this poem "mostly autobiographical" or autobiographical in many ways. I
>>> have distinctly told him in the past that, while some of the speaker's
>>> memories were based on my own childhood experiences, not all of them
>>> were; I was using them in a work of creative fiction, not an
>>> autobiography of any kind. So he lied and made up a fake quote to
>>> support his lie.
>>
>> I haven't the time to go searching for the exact quote, but you had
>> initially maintained that it was "mostly autobiographical" or "mostly
>> based on your childhood," or similar words expressing the same thing.
>
> If you don't have time, get your NastyGoon to search for it. In this
> case I have to call your bullshit. You claimed the poem was
> "autobiographical", and I tried to explain to you the difference between
> creative literature and autobiography - repeatedly. You believe it's
> autobiographical because you said it was autobiographical, and for no
> other reason.

George, George, George... no autobiography is 100% accurate.  People
present *their* interpretation of the various events comprising their
lives.  And everyone's interpretation is colored by various factors. 
This is why your perception of Dr. NancyGene's and my analyses of your
poem strike you as personal attacks, whereas from my perspective the
*only* way to examine a semi-autobiographical poem on child abuse is
consider the speaker and the poet as being essentially the same
individual.

In fact, Karla's oft-quoted adage aside, one can *never* fully separate
the two.
For instance, all of the characters in any author's fictional novel are
going to represent some aspect of the author.  Every poem stems from its
author's imagination... regardless of what external persons and/or
events might have inspired it.  Every literary work is similar to a
dream construct in that regard; and like a dream construct, can be
analyzed by a psychologist, a literary critic, or even the average
reader.  Since "My Father's House" was based to a large extent on your
own childhood experiences, it literally begs for a psychoanalytical
reading.

Despite your claims of taking the reader through Little George's home
(with the same floor plan as its real life counterpart) on a
room-by-room basis, you jump from the kitchen to the garden.  I am
guessing that you'd originally written the garden stanza to come first
within the body of the narrative, but had later switched it with the
kitchen stanza based on the severity of the (potentially perceived)
abuses. In this stanza, Little George is forced to spend his summers
working in the garden -- while enviously watching the neighborhood
children.  Because Little George describes their games as "mis

How autobiographical is your poem?  Let's see.

In the poem "Little George" states that the house came in a box, and
that he helped his father assemble it,  You had said that in real life,
your house came in a box, and that you helped your father assemble it.

Little George tells how he was made to use the back door, had to take
off his shoes (and things), and wait for permission to enter.  In real
life, you had to use the back door, and remove your shoes before
entering as well.  I don't recall whether you also had to wait for
permission.

You have also stated that the house in the poem is laid out exactly your
real life childhood house, and that you have intentionally chosen to
take the reader through this house room by room.  You have also said
that you intentionally chose to present each room along with a
description of a (possibly abusive) memory associated with it.

The first room in Little George's house is the kitchen.  Little George
associates this room with having to wash dishes, while looking out the
window and wishing that he was some other place.  In real life, you were
also made to wash dishes.  This is not uncommon.  Most children 50 years
ago were given chores to perform.  I had chores to do as well.  The
difference is that I was paid a weekly allowance for doing them, and had
the option of quitting my "job" at my discretion.

In spite of your claim that you were taking the reader on a tour of
Little George's house (which has the same floorplan as your real life
childhood home), the narrative jumps from the kitchen to the garden. 
I'm guessing that the garden stanza originally came before the kitchen
one, but that you later rearranged the stanzas to present the supposed
"abuses" in order of severity (as you have recently stated).  Little
George spends his summers working in the garden, all the while envious
of the neighborhood children who are free to play at their will.  The
fact that Little George calls their games "mysterious" and laments that
he "never knew" them implies both that he had to spend the entire day
doing chores and that he was not allowed to join the other children in
their games.

Was George Dance also forced to work in the garden all day/denied the
fun of playing with the other children?  I don't know.  I'm guessing
that he was, because many children had gardens that they tended every
day.  I certainly did.  I would spend an hour or so tending my garden
every morning -- along with my mother and siblings.  I loved my garden
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========