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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Incorrect requirements --- Computing the mapping from the input
 to HHH(DD)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2025 19:34:41 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 5/11/25 6:00 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/11/2025 4:48 PM, wij wrote:
>> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 15:53 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/11/2025 3:23 PM, wij wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 15:19 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/11/2025 1:38 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 12:40 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 12:21 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 12:00 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 11:28 AM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 2025-05-11 at 10:38 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/11/2025 9:34 AM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 21:19 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 9:09 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 20:56 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 8:44 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 20:26 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 8:17 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 17:03 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 4:44 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2025-05-10 at 14:29 -0500, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/10/2025 2:02 PM, wij wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't know the counter example in the HP proof, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your D is not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what HP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure I do this is it! (as correctly encoded in C)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>            int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>            if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>              HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>            return Halt_Status;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>            HHH(DD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Try to convert it to TM language to know you know nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I spent 22 years on this. I started with the Linz text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>           or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ invokes embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (c) embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by embedded_H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly reach its simulated final halt state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To refute the HP, you need to understand what it exactly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means in TM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have known this for 22 years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A working TM. Build it explicitly from transition 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function, then explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your derivation. You know nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be like examining how an operating system
>>>>>>>>>>>>> works entirely from its machine code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You are refuting a CS foundamental theorem (i.e. HP) 
>>>>>>>>>>>> officially.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, yes, and actually MORE need to be done (beyond your 
>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Knowing a car or smart phone,... is far different from 
>>>>>>>>>>>> making one.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Knowing E=mc^2 is far from knowing relativity, making A-bomb 
>>>>>>>>>>>> (actually, making
>>>>>>>>>>>> A-bomb don't need to know E=mc^2, people are often fooled by 
>>>>>>>>>>>> popular saying)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Every chapter of Linz's book, C text textbook has exercises, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> you need to those
>>>>>>>>>>>> exercises AT LEAST to comment CS (and computation theory is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> more advanced topic
>>>>>>>>>>>> than TM). Saying so is because we know you can't do the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> exercise and boast lots
>>>>>>>>>>>> about TM stuff (and pretty much anything else from just 
>>>>>>>>>>>> reading words), even
>>>>>>>>>>>> about theorem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When Ĥ is applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
>>>>>>>>>>>         or
>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (a) Ĥ copies its input ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>> (b) Ĥ invokes embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>> (c) embedded_H simulates ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All that I need to know is that I proved that
>>>>>>>>>>> embedded_H correctly recognizes the repeating
>>>>>>>>>>> pattern where its correctly simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot possibly reach its own simulated final
>>>>>>>>>>> halt state of ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.liarparadox.org/Linz_Proof.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We only have to actually know one detail:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Every counter-example input encoded in any model
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of computation always specifies recursive simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that never halts to its corresponding simulating
>>>>>>>>>>>>> termination analyzer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> More example here that you don't understand nearly all CS 
>>>>>>>>>>>> terms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mere empty rhetoric entirely bereft of any supporting
>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning. The x86 language is comparable to a RASP
>>>>>>>>>>> machine that is equivalent to a Turing machine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Question:
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Do you understand that you can't do the exercises in Linz's 
>>>>>>>>>> book?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Everything is 100% irrelevant besides the fact that
>>>>>>>>> I have shown that ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ correctly simulated by
>>>>>>>>> embedded_H cannot possibly reach its own simulated
>>>>>>>>> final halt state ⟨Ĥ.qn⟩. Thus when embedded_H reports
>>>>>>>>> on the behavior that its input specifies it can
>>>>>>>>> correctly transition to Ĥ.qn.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Do you understand your ability of C/assembly/TM is less 
>>>>>>>>>> than 1 year CS level?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I construe C as high level assembly language thus
>>>>>>>>> disregard any inessentials. No change since K & R
>>>>>>>>> is of any use to me. I write C++ the same way. I
>>>>>>>>> use it as C with classes. I also use std::vector a lot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Q3. If people know the capability of the author of POOH is less 
>>>>>>>> than 1 year CS
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