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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Ginsberg's Rorschach poetry
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 20:58:29 +0000
Organization: novaBBS
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On Tue, 18 Feb 2025 13:00:31 +0000, HarryLime wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Feb 2025 8:21:53 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 19:38:26 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 19:08:51 +0000, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 18:22:57 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 16:11:37 +0000, Will-Dockery wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Victor H. wrote:
>>>>>>> Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:27:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Allen Ginsberg's poem shows no pedophilia as far as I can tell.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What you claim to see in the poem seems to be from your own imagination,
>>>>>> Pendragon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Says the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, says several legitimate sources, which day that "Please
>>>>>> Master" was written by Allen Ginsberg for Neal Cassady, a grown man.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HTH and HAND.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did Pendragon ever admit he was wrong....?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know Pendragon never admits when he's wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't matter if the poem was written for Neal Cassady (a man
>>>>> roughly 1/3 Ginsberg's age), as nothing in the actual poems specifies
>>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong again, Harry.
>>>>
>>>> Allen Ginsberg and Neal Cassady were both born in 1926.
>>>>
>>>> <Crickets continue as Harry Lime continues to ignore this correction.>
>>>
>>> The poem does not mention Neal Cassady's name.  It is addressed to
>>> someone known only as "Master."  The poem is therefore not about Neal
>>> Cassady.
>>>
>>> This doesn't mean that the poem wasn't *inspired by* Ginsberg's
>>> relationship with Cassady.
>>
>> As if is said to be.
>>
>>> A poem is composed of words.  A proper reading of a poem must confine
>>> itself solely to the words.  If the poem doesn't mention Neal Cassady,
>>> then you cannot say that the poem is about Ginsberg's relationship with
>>> Cassady.
>>
>> Beat poetry experts have stated this is a fact, and Allen Ginsberg may
>> have possibly revealed this as well.
>
> It's as if we're speaking two different languages.  I'm speaking
> English.  Perhaps Dr. Schwimmer can translate for you.

You're trying to say Allen Ginsberg had sex with people younger than 18,
I'm saying no evidence exists of your claims.

>>> The poem is about a "Master" and IIRC an unidentified speaker.
>>>
>>> Approaching the poem on its own terms, I read it as depicting the
>>> homosexual BDSM relationship between a Dom and a Sub.  I also read it as
>>> hinting at a relationship between a Master and his Apprentice.  Both
>>> readings are justified by the poem's text, and both can easily be seen
>>> to coexist.
>>>
>>> Any critical reading of the poem will necessarily pick up on the
>>> Man-Boy/Master-Apprentice/Sub-Dom implications, and draw the same
>>> conclusions as myself.
>>>
>>> I'm glad to learn that Cassady and Ginsberg were roughly the same age.
>>> Good for them.
>>
>> Yes, glad to clear up your confusion.
>>
>>> The poem, otoh, is still strongly implying a Man-Boy relationship.
>>>
>>> [END QUOTE]
>>>
>>> This statement appears in *this* thread
>>
>> Yes, I found it earlier.
>
> --

Bottom line is the youngest sex partner Allen Ginsberg is known to have
been involved with was an 18-19 year old man.

HTH and HAND.