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From: Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Todays rant
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:43:11 -0500
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On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:06:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/15/2024 10:11 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On 15 Dec 2024 14:17:03 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>> On 14 Dec 2024 16:52:01 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/14/2024 8:23 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 20:59:41 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 12/13/2024 8:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/13/2024 4:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/13/2024 1:15 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>    The vast majority of the mass shootings that target
>>>>>>>>>>>> random victims in schools, malls, and theaters aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>> committed by people with a violent past, so the argument
>>>>>>>>>>>> that 'they never committed violence before' is pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>> much irrelevant to the context of this conversation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I realize there have been a number of instances  at
>>>>>>>>>>>> clubs, bars, and parties where it seems to be related to
>>>>>>>>>>>> gang activity. Those aren't' the types of incidents we're
>>>>>>>>>>>> discussing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes I agree.  The bulk of 'mass shooting' events are
>>>>>>>>>>> tangential to ongoing criminal activity; at a party, in a
>>>>>>>>>>> bar, drive-by in front of a crowd, etc.  Utterly different
>>>>>>>>>>> problem (with different possible resolutions) than a
>>>>>>>>>>> deranged but determined homicidal maniac.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I can't think of a deterrent/preventive strategy except
>>>>>>>>>>> for maybe public execution and I hesitate to assume even
>>>>>>>>>>> that would dissuade Son of Sam, Nikolas Cruz, Richard
>>>>>>>>>>> Ramirez, Stephen Paddock, Jeffrey Dahmer, or their ilk.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One suggestion might be to look at the social conditions in
>>>>>>>>>> nations similar to the U.S. but with far fewer killings,
>>>>>>>>>> especially gun killings, per capita. Emulate what they do.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "?No Way To Prevent This,? Says Only Nation Where This
>>>>>>>>>> Regularly Happens"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-
>>>>>>>>>> nation-where-this-r-1848971668/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do not have a snappy solution.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> some context:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1386759/mass-shootings-us-other-developed-world/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even if all the "assault weapons" were rounded up and destroyed, it
>>>>>>>> wouldn't stop the mass murders nor any other murders. There are too
>>>>>>>> many other ways to do it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where there's a will, there's a way. The problem is there are people
>>>>>>>> with the will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It?s much much harder without a gun and particularly a gun that can be
>>>>>>> rapidly fired.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mass murders by other means are not impossible but that much harder and can
>>>>>>> be stopped by brave unarmed people as with the children killed in the uk
>>>>>>> this summer, which was used by various right wing groups to inspire riots
>>>>>>> by well lying!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the suspect was slowed by one of the nursery workers I think she died
>>>>>>> from her injuries but she was able to slow/prevent and a colleague got help
>>>>>>> from the Gym? Anyway a large chap who subdued the attacker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don?t get me wrong I suspect that it would require more than just removing
>>>>>>> easy access to guns etc, but even that almost certainly would have dramatic
>>>>>>> effects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> C'est bon
>>>>>>>> Soloman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, yes to some extent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the instant example from NYC, Mr Mangione, an engineer,
>>>>>> originally planned to make a bomb but decided the risk of
>>>>>> injury/death to people other than his target was too high so
>>>>>> he made his own firearm and suppressor with a 3D printer.
>>>>>> Good luck 'regulating' a capable determined psychopath.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone with basic machining skills can make a Sten. The
>>>>>> simple open bolt action design is at the top end of firing
>>>>>> rates for automatics:
>>>>>> https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/guns-and-parts-seized-man-arrested-in-weapons-raids/news-story/e7addecb691695b3aebdb5b613181132
>>>>>
>>>>> I?m sure they could but that?s not the path of least resistance ie to use
>>>>> the gun they own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although the path of least resistance has changed to 3D print:
>>>>>> https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/14/australia/australia-3d-printed-firearm-intl-hnk/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that?s more criminals trying to avoid detection, than being
>>>>> actively used at least in the mass killings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Criminals shooting each other and the innocents nearby are a
>>>>>> real problem. That problem, within bounds of rationality,
>>>>>> likely has solutions for mitigation. A madman determined to
>>>>>> kill will not be deterred by licensing/prohibition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Places that have removed guns or from general circulation suggest otherwise
>>>>> plus police actions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ie in the uk use of gun means as criminals you?ve instantly made yourself
>>>>> UK most wanted, let alone your chance of survival if the armed police
>>>>> encounter you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A short walk through the history of anarchist and insurgent
>>>>>> bombings shows huge losses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Occasionally yes, but it?s much harder work and much less numbers certainly
>>>>> per year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> p.s. regarding 'rapid'
>>>>>> Modern semi rifles and pistols fire all within the same rate
>>>>>> range, which is lower than revolvers BTW and much slower
>>>>>> than even primitive home built automatics
>>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed any gun control would almost certainly target those. As happens in
>>>>> various countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your reference to using a gun in the UK being a serious crime is
>>>> really what makes it less common. If we made carrying a gun while
>>>> committing a crime a serious offense with mandatory prison it would be
>>>> a serious detereant. Instead we just turn them loose.
>>>>
>>> Gun use is a rarity in the UK hence uk can respond so fully, I doubt USA
>>> could do that nor would mandatory prison time make much difference.
>>>
>>> It’s the career professionals who are most put off, ie a gun means they are
>>> instantly top of the list and will have significant resources made
>>> available to catch them.
>>>
>>> And if it’s deemed remotely that your a risk to the public the armed police
>>> who are very highly trained and your life will be viewed and a secondary
>>> concern.
>>>
>>> This is why organised crime keeps away from guns as serving time in the
>>> prison is part of the job. But being targeted both by the police and by the
>>> armed response isn’t ie the consequences outweigh the benefits.
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> C'est bon
>>>> Soloman
>>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>> 
>> The difference is that after gaining freedom from the U.K., or was it
>> England?, in the late 1700's,  the U.S. made the he right of a citizen
>> to hold and bear arms a fundamental part of the new country's laws.
>
>True, to have "well regulated militias."

...which was not a requirement for individuals' right to keep and bear
arms

>They also made it legal to own slaves. And let slaves count as 3/5 of a 
>person for certain government calculations.
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