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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2025 04:26:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Rewriting SSA. Is This A Chance For GNU/Linux?
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From: c186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2025 00:26:47 -0400
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On 4/5/25 9:07 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/04/2025 23:27, c186282 wrote:
>> On 4/5/25 3:40 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 05/04/2025 20:22, c186282 wrote:
>>>> Analog ... it still may have certain uses, however for
>>>>    chain operations the accumulated errors WILL getcha.
>>>>    Might be a 'near' or 'finely-quantitized' sort of
>>>>    analog - 100,000 distinct, non-drifting, states that
>>>>    for some practical purposes LOOKS like traditional
>>>>    analog. So long as you don't need TOO many decimal
>>>>    points ......
>>>   Analogue multiplication is the holy grail and can be dome using the 
>>> exponential characteristics of bipolar transistors
>>>
>>> https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADL5391.pdf 
>>>
>>>
>>>>    Finally ... non-binary computing, eight or ten states
>>>>    per "bit". Fewer operations, fewer gates twiddling,
>>>>    better efficiency anyhow, potentially better speed. But
>>>>    doing it with anything like traditional semiconductors,
>>>>    cannot see how.
>>
>>> Non binary computing is essentially analogue computing
>>
>>    Ummmm ... not if you can enforce clear 'guard bands' around
>>    each of the, say eight, distinct voltage levels. Alas, as
>>    stated, those 'different voltage levels' mean transistors
>>    aren't cleanly on or off and will burn power kind of like
>>    little resistors. Some all new material and approach would
>>    be needed. Meta-material science MIGHT someday be able to
>>    produce something like that.
>>
>>> It is already done in Flash RAM where more than two states of the 
>>> memory capacitors are possible
>>>
>>> Massive arrays of non linear analogue circuits for modelling things 
>>> like the Navier Stokes equations would be possible: Probably make a 
>>> better stab at climate modelling then the existing shit.
>>
>>    Again with analog, it's the sensitivity to especially
>>    temperature conditions that add errors in.
> 
> Not really, That was mostly sorted years ago.


   Ummm ... I'm gonna kinda have to disagree.

   There are several factors that lead to errors in
   analog electronics - simple temperature being
   the worst.


>>    Keep
>>    carrying those errors through several stages and soon
>>    all you have is error, pretending to be The Solution.
> 
> So no different from floating point based current climate models, then...


   Digital FP *can* be done to almost arbitrary precision.
   If you're running, say, a climate or 'dark energy' model
   then you use a LOT of precision.


>>    Again, perhaps some meta-material that's NOT sensitive
>>    to what typically throws-off analog electronics MIGHT
>>    be made.
>>
>>    I'm trying to visualize what it would take to make
>>    an all-analog version of, say, a payroll spreadsheet :-)
>>
> An awful lot of op-amps.


   To say the least :-)

   CAN be done, but is it WORTH it ???

   But, I suppose, a whole-budget CAN be viewed
   as an analog equation IF you try hard enough.


> The thing is that analogue computers were useful for system analysis 
> years before digital stuff came along. You could examine a dynamic 
> system and see if it was stable or not.

   Well, *how* stable it is ........

   Digital is always right-on.

   So what do you NEED most - speed or accuracy ?

> If not you did it another way. People who dribble on about 'climate 
> tipping points'have no clue really as to how real life complex analogue 
> systems work.

   I'm just gonna say that "climate" is beyond ANY kind
   of models - analog OR digital. TOO many butterflies.

>>    Now discrete use of analog as, as you suggested, doing
>>    multiplication/division/logs initiated and read by
>>    digital ... ?
>>
> Its being thought about.

   And we shall see ... advantage, or not ?

   Maybe, horrors, "depends" .....

   The "real world" acts as a very complex analog
   equation - until you get down to quantum levels.
   HOW the hell to best DEAL with that ???

>>    Oh well, we're out in sci-fi land with most of this ...
>>    may as well talk about using giant evil brains in
>>    jars as computers  :-)
>>
> Well no, we are not.
> Digital traded speed for precision.


   I'd say digital traded precision for speed ...


>>    As some here have mentioned, we may be closer to the
>>    limits of computer power that we'd like to think.
>>    Today's big trick is parallelization, but only some
>>    kinds of problems can be modeled that way.
>>
>>    Saw an article the other day about using some kind
>>    of disulfide for de-facto transistors, but did not
>>    get the impression that they'd be fast. I think
>>    temperature resistance was the main thrust - industrial
>>    apps, Venus landers and such.
>>
> I think I saw that too..
> 
> Massive parallelisation will definitely do *some* things faster.

   Agreed ... but not EVERYTHING.

   Sometimes there's just no substitute for clock
   speed and high-speed mem access.

> Think 4096 core GPU processors...I think that's the way it will happen, 
> decline of the general purpose CPU and emergence of specific chips 
> tailored to specific tasks. Its already happening to an extend with on 
> chip everything....

   I kinda understand. However that whole chip chain
   will likely need to be fully, by design, integrated.
   This is NOT so easy with multiple manufacturers.

   I've avoided investments in higher-tech/specific-
   tech stuff. NVIDIA seemed good - but the current
   trade war is gonna put a BIG strain on them. It's
   all too volatile, too vulnerable to even small
   politics - govt or industry.
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