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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2025 21:08:21 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 3/28/25 6:38 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/28/2025 5:30 PM, dbush wrote:
>> On 3/28/2025 6:09 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2025 3:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>> On 3/28/2025 4:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/28/2025 2:24 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 3:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 4:43 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 28.mrt.2025 om 03:13 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/25 9:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:02 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:27 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 2:18 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.mrt.2025 om 04:09 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2025 8:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting is that the machine won't reach its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final staste even if an unbounded number of steps 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are emulated. Since HHH doesn't do that, it isn't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> showing non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH will never reach its final 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 reaches its final state in a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not very interesting to know whether a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator reports that it is unable to reach the end 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the simulation of a program that halts in direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS NOT what HHH is reporting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly rejects DDD because DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, HHH is not a halt decider because it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not computing the required mapping:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:19:42 PM UTC-5, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > In other words you could find any error in my post so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you resort to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > lame tactic of ad hominem personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2024 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of clueless 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonders*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I corrected your error dozens of times and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore these corrections and mindlessly repeat
>>>>>>>>>>>>> your error like a bot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is what you've been doing for the last three years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Projection, as always.  I'll add the above to the list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> TM's cannot possibly ever report on the behavior
>>>>>>>>>>> of the direct execution of another TM. I proved
>>>>>>>>>>> this many times in may ways. Ignoring these proofs
>>>>>>>>>>> IT NOT ANY FORM OF REBUTTAL.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure they can.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> WHere is your proof? And what actual accepted principles is is 
>>>>>>>>>> based on?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No TM can take another directly executed TM as an input
>>>>>>>>> and Turing computable functions only compute the mapping
>>>>>>>>> from inputs to outputs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If A TM can only compute the mapping from *its* input to *its* 
>>>>>>>> output, it cannot be wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Taking a wild guess does not count as computing the mapping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> False.  The only requirement is to map a member of the input 
>>>>>> domain to a member of the output domain as per the requirements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it does so in all cases, the mapping is computed.  It doesn't 
>>>>>> matter how it's done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless an input is transformed into an output
>>>>> on the basis of a syntactic or semantic property
>>>>> of this input it is not a Turing computable function.
>>>>>
>>>>> int StringLength(char *S)
>>>>> {
>>>>>    return 5;
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> Does not compute the string length of any string.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> False.  It computes the length of all strings of length 5.
>>>
>>> It does not compute (a sequence of steps of an
>>> algorithm that derive an output on the basis of
>>> an input) jack shit it makes a guess.
>>>
>>
>> Doesn't matter. If the requirement is to return 5 for strings that 
>> have a length of 5, it meets the requirement.
> 
> The actual requirement is to compute the mapping
> from a finite string to its length using a sequence
> of algorithmic steps.
> 
> Likewise for halting. Compute the mapping from a
> finite string of machine code to the behavior that
> this finite string specifies.
> 

With that specifcation DEFINED as the behavior of the machine described 
when it is actually run.

The fact that this behavior will not be computed by HHH is irrelevent to 
the problem, it is the requirement.

The fact that for ANY decider you create, we can create a seperate input 
specifically for that decider that it will get wrong, says that the 
mapping defined is non-computable.

A concept that seems to be beyond your understanding, perhaps related to 
you inability to understand what Truth and Knowledge are.

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