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From: wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Incorrect requirements --- Computing the mapping from the input
 to HHH(DD)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2025 12:51:21 +0800
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On Fri, 2025-05-09 at 23:44 -0500, olcott wrote:
> On 5/9/2025 11:32 PM, wij wrote:
> > On Fri, 2025-05-09 at 23:18 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > On 5/9/2025 10:43 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 2025-05-09 at 22:24 -0500, olcott wrote:
> > > > > On 5/9/2025 10:13 PM, wij wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, 2025-05-09 at 19:40 -0700, Keith Thompson wrote:
> > > > > > > olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > On 5/9/2025 4:40 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 09/05/2025 21:15, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On 5/9/2025 3:07 PM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On 09/05/2025 20:46, olcott wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > We have not begun to get into any of those points.
> > > > > > > > > > > > We are only asking can DDD correctly simulated
> > > > > > > > > > > > by any HHH that can exist ever reach its own
> > > > > > > > > > > > "return" instruction.
> > > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > > DDD can't be correctly simulated by itself (which is =
effectively
> > > > > > > > > > > what you're trying to do when you fire up the simulat=
ion from
> > > > > > > > > > > inside DDD).
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > How the Hell did you twist my words to say that?
> > > > > > > > > I haven't touched your words. What I have done is to obse=
rve that
> > > > > > > > > DDD's /only/ action is to call a simulator. Since DDD isn=
't itself a
> > > > > > > > > simulator, there is nothing to simulate except a call to =
a
> > > > > > > > > simulator.
> > > > > > > > > It's recursion without a base case - a rookie error.
> > > > > > > > > HHH cannot successfully complete its task, because it nev=
er regains
> > > > > > > > > control after the first recursion. To return, it must abo=
rt the
> > > > > > > > > simulation, which means the simulation fails.
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > void DDD()
> > > > > > > > > > {
> > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 HHH(DDD);
> > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 return;
> > > > > > > > > > }
> > > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > > When 1 or more statements of DDD are correctly
> > > > > > > > > > simulated by HHH then this correctly simulated
> > > > > > > > > > DDD cannot possibly reach its own =E2=80=9Creturn state=
ment=E2=80=9D.
> > > > > > > > > On what grounds can you persuade an extraordinarily scept=
ical
> > > > > > > > > readership that HHH 'correctly simulated' DDD?
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > Any competent C programmer can see that
> > > > > > > > the call from DDD to HHH(DDD) (its own simulator)
> > > > > > > > is equivalent to infinite recursion.
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > On 5/8/2025 8:30 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Assuming that HHH(DDD) "correctly simulates" DDD, and ass=
uming it
> > > > > > > > > does nothing else, your code would be equivalent to this:
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 void DDD(void)=
 {
> > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 DDD();
> > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 return;
> > > > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
> > > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > > Then the return statement (which is unnecessary anyway) w=
ill never be
> > > > > > > > > reached.=C2=A0 In practice, the program will likely crash=
 due to a stack
> > > > > > > > > overflow, unless the compiler implements tail-call optimi=
zation, in
> > > > > > > > > which case the program might just run forever -- which al=
so means the
> > > > > > > > > unnecessary return statement will never be reached.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > I had not intended to post again, but I feel the need to make
> > > > > > > a clarification.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > I acknowledged that the return statement would never be reach=
ed
> > > > > > > *given the assumption* that HHH correctly simulates DDD.=C2=
=A0 Given
> > > > > > > that assumption, a call to DDD() should be equivalent to a ca=
ll
> > > > > > > to HHH(DDD).
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > I did not address whether the assumption is valid.=C2=A0 I me=
rely
> > > > > > > temporarily accepted it for the sake of discussion, just as I=
 would
> > > > > > > accept that if I were ten feet tall I would bump my head agai=
nst
> > > > > > > the ceiling in my house.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > The discussion I had with olcott did not reach the point of
> > > > > > > discussing *how* HHH could correctly simulate DDD, or whether=
 it
> > > > > > > would even be logically possible for it to do so.=C2=A0 I als=
o did not
> > > > > > > address any issues of partial simulation, where olcott claims=
 that
> > > > > > > HHH can "accurately simulate" only a few x86 instructions rat=
her
> > > > > > > than simulating its entire execution.=C2=A0 I did not partici=
pate in
> > > > > > > any discussion that would require knowledge of x86 machine or
> > > > > > > assembly code.=C2=A0 (I have no doubt that I could learn x86 =
machine
> > > > > > > and assembly code reasonably well if motivated to do so, but =
I am
> > > > > > > not so motivated.)
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > What I acknowledged was barely more than "if HHH correctly si=
mulates
> > > > > > > DDD, then HHH correctly simulates DDD".=C2=A0 (My understandi=
ng from
> > > > > > > posts by others, whom I presume to be sufficiently knowledgea=
ble,
> > > > > > > is that HHH logically cannot accurately simulate DDD.)=C2=A0 =
I would
> > > > > > > prefer that olcott refrain from using my words to support any=
 of
> > > > > > > his arguments beyond the scope of what he and I directly disc=
ussed.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Don't know why you people stick on the 'simulation' stuff so lo=
ng.
> > > > > > The HP simply asks for such an H (in function form. POOH does n=
ot
> > > > > > resemble TM):
> > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 H(D)=3D1 if D() halt.
> > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 H(D)=3D0 if D() not halt.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > My invention of a simulating termination
> > > > > analyzer shows exactly how to compute the
> > > > > mapping that the input that HHH(DD) specifies
> > > > > into a correct answer for the halting problem's
> > > > > otherwise impossible input.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > All rebuttals are based on failing to compute
> > > > > this mapping correctly.
> > > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > What is the correct mapping?
> > > >=20
> > >=20
> > > _DDD()
> > > [00002172] 55=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 push eb=
p=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ; housekeeping
> > > [00002173] 8bec=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 mov ebp,esp=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 ; housekeeping
> > > [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> > > [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
> > > [0000217f] 83c404=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 add esp,+04
> > > [00002182] 5d=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 pop ebp
> > > [00002183] c3=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ret
> > > Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
> > >=20
> > > Computing the mapping of DDD emulated by HHH
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