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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DD emulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally --- x86
code
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2025 16:11:28 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <ccffabe7273c38cacc76e848fd2a394f5230fb14@i2pn2.org>
References: <vptlfu$3st19$9@dont-email.me>
<d128909f1359b48293dd1823d22d671435d5640c@i2pn2.org>
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<5c444106eafa1235cc4953d9be6faddf8825bcf3@i2pn2.org>
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<1fa130b5ec11e0472fad3aca4cfef9bcb9741652@i2pn2.org>
<vq06vt$eljf$2@dont-email.me>
<52304f4681892042635b15d64f001407601cc841@i2pn2.org>
<vq0nh7$kqua$3@dont-email.me>
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On 3/1/25 11:41 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/1/2025 7:14 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/1/25 6:58 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/1/2025 3:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 3/1/25 2:01 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/1/2025 10:05 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/1/25 9:41 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/1/2025 6:49 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2/28/25 7:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> _DD()
>>>>>>>>> [00002133] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002134] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002136] 51 push ecx ; make space for local
>>>>>>>>> [00002137] 6833210000 push 00002133 ; push DD
>>>>>>>>> [0000213c] e882f4ffff call 000015c3 ; call HHH(DD)
>>>>>>>>> [00002141] 83c404 add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>> [00002144] 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
>>>>>>>>> [00002147] 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
>>>>>>>>> [0000214b] 7402 jz 0000214f
>>>>>>>>> [0000214d] ebfe jmp 0000214d
>>>>>>>>> [0000214f] 8b45fc mov eax,[ebp-04]
>>>>>>>>> [00002152] 8be5 mov esp,ebp
>>>>>>>>> [00002154] 5d pop ebp
>>>>>>>>> [00002155] c3 ret
>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0035) [00002155]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When we hypothesize that the code at machine address
>>>>>>>>> 0000213c is an x86 emulator then we know that DD
>>>>>>>>> remains stuck in recursive emulation and cannot possibly
>>>>>>>>> reach its own "ret" instruction and terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When we add the additional complexity that HHH also
>>>>>>>>> aborts this sequence at some point then every level
>>>>>>>>> of recursive emulation immediately stops. This does
>>>>>>>>> not enable any DD to ever reach its "ret" instruction.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But then you just negated your first assumption, as a partial
>>>>>>>> emulator that aborts its emulation, then DD no longer gets stuck.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cannot possibly reach its own "ret" instruction and terminate
>>>>>>> normally
>>>>>>> proves non-termination whether aborted or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cannot possibly reach its own "ret" instruction and terminate
>>>>>>> normally
>>>>>>> proves non-termination whether aborted or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cannot possibly reach its own "ret" instruction and terminate
>>>>>>> normally
>>>>>>> proves non-termination whether aborted or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it DOES terminate
>>>>>
>>>>> DD emulated by HHH never terminates no matter how many
>>>>> times you try to get away with the straw-man deception
>>>>> of referring to anything at all besides
>>>>>
>>>>> DD EMULATED BY HHH
>>>>> DD EMULATED BY HHH
>>>>> DD EMULATED BY HHH
>>>>> DD EMULATED BY HHH
>>>>> DD EMULATED BY HHH
>>>>> DD EMULATED BY HHH
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which since HHH doesn't correctly emulate DD is just a fantasy.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If it was actually incorrect then someone could show
>>> how the above code is correctly emulated by HHH.
>>
>> How? if HHH doesn't correctly do the emulation, then it doesn't do a
>> correct emulation, and changing it to do so isn't valid.
>>
>
> If you cannot provide an actual correct emulation
> that differs from the one that I provided then
> you have no basis what-so-ever to say that mine incorrect.
>
> IF I AM WRONG THEN SHOW WHAT IS RIGHT
> IF YOU CANNOT SHOW WHAT IS RIGHT THEN YOU ARE CLUELESS
>
Since you can't correctly emulate what isn't there, your problem is
incorrect by definition.
An decider, and a program reperesentation, need to be of PURE functions,
which means they can't use anything other than executing their own code,
and looking at their input.
Since the contents of 000015c3 hasn't been provided as part of the
input, it can not be used, and thus we can't emulate the instruction
after it.
Sorry, you are just proving that you have no idea of what you are
talking about.
If you want a trace per your standards:
On 4/27/21 12:55 AM, olcott wrote:
Message-ID: <Teudndbu59GVBBr9nZ2dnUU7-V2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
> void H_Hat(u32 P)
> {
> u32 Input_Halts = Halts(P, P);
> if (Input_Halts)
> HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
>
> int main()
> {
> H_Hat((u32)H_Hat);
> }
>
>
> _H_Hat()
> [00000b98](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000b99](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>
[00000b9b](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000b9c](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000b9f](01) 50 push eax
> [00000ba0](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000ba3](01) 51 push ecx
> [00000ba4](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> [00000ba9](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> [00000bac](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00000baf](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00000bb3](02) 7402 jz 00000bb7
> [00000bb5](02) ebfe jmp 00000bb5
> [00000bb7](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
> [00000bb9](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bba](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00000bba]
>
> _main()
> [00000bc8](01) 55 push ebp
> [00000bc9](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> [00000bcb](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> [00000bd0](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> [00000bd5](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
> [00000bd8](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> [00000bda](01) 5d pop ebp
> [00000bdb](01) c3 ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [00000bdb]
>
> ===============================
> ...[00000bc8][001015d4][00000000](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000bc9][001015d4][00000000](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000bcb][001015d0][00000b98](05) 68980b0000 push 00000b98
> ...[00000bd0][001015cc][00000bd5](05) e8c3ffffff call 00000b98
> ...[00000b98][001015c8][001015d4](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][001015c8][001015d4](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][001015c4][00000000](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][001015c4][00000000](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000b9f][001015c0][00000b98](01) 50 push eax
> ...[00000ba0][001015c0][00000b98](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[00000ba3][001015bc][00000b98](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000ba4][001015b8][00000ba9](05) e88ffdffff call 00000938
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:b98
> ...[00000b98][00211674][00211678](01) 55 push ebp
> ...[00000b99][00211674][00211678](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00000b9b][00211670][00201644](01) 51 push ecx
> ...[00000b9c][00211670][00201644](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
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