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Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech Subject: Re: New Bike Path Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 07:10:42 +0700 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 115 Message-ID: <cgbj9jp4smtgpf6omt0edoenhvl9ncbuu3@4ax.com> References: <v6oskl$2frbh$1@dont-email.me> <z9VjO.57191$VBH2.30514@fx16.ams4> <v6qu9q$2jvdo$1@dont-email.me> <N5hkO.14857$tUK1.4825@fx07.ams4> <v72unp$k5kl$4@dont-email.me> <BFblO.44499$ku13.15360@fx13.ams4> <v73nvv$pqin$2@dont-email.me> <VQdlO.178026$0SEc.45366@fx02.ams4> <d8eg9jtkkacslvvp1lb1u2g58alc9pt4lh@4ax.com> <k95mO.45893$rMbd.18000@fx08.ams4> <g3sh9jpr89rb34kag53f2j08t4drmlof63@4ax.com> <00vh9jtk7a9fl8l5bnd3j1c9c01kblpmuv@4ax.com> <iZ9mO.85450$J6gc.47515@fx09.ams4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2024 02:10:46 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="b941f3c27a4eeed4dba345e7c1f6d636"; logging-data="2794072"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/hkBy7TU6q1Z33Bw7hbOIULPTz8EL17XM=" User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.10.32.1212 Cancel-Lock: sha1:N4JWESa4Y7i7oGU2JUM98Xt0FNw= Bytes: 6415 On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 14:50:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote: >John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 07:09:31 -0400, Catrike Ryder >> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 09:22:24 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 18:25:57 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>>>>>> On 7/15/2024 11:57 AM, Roger Merriman wrote: >>>>>>>> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Basically, in town there is no way to build a safe bidirectional cycleway. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think there are rare exceptions, and I think "safe" is not a binary >>>>>>> condition. But I certainly think most introduce serious hazards not >>>>>>> present in normal roads. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Absolutely there is, plenty in london that work well, but they don?t cross >>>>>>>> drive in sort of places but certainly in London the two tend to be in very >>>>>>>> different locations!... >>>>>>>> Town Bidirectional cycleway. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://maps.app.goo.gl/8DeJ2xi7ZP2cbXsG9?g_st=ic >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Some junctions are light controlled others don?t warrant it, it seems to >>>>>>>> work well, I only use it occasionally and often like I will on Sunday for a >>>>>>>> Cheese market being Chiswick. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Adding special traffic lights just for bikes, as in your photo, can >>>>>>> help, but at a penalty of extra delays for both bikes and cars. I rode >>>>>>> bike lanes with extra bike traffic lights in Stockholm, for example, and >>>>>>> sometimes waited at our "special" red light while parallel cars had a >>>>>>> green. I saw other cyclists who seemed more familiar with the area >>>>>>> ignoring the red. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Not special traffic lights it?s essentially the junction so just it?s own >>>>>> phase or rather with the pedestrians, being a high street, this is >>>>>> frequent, ie your not going to be doing 20+ mph like the Embankment its not >>>>>> that set up. >>>>>> >>>>>>> And if there are very many driveways, the hazard we're discussing exists >>>>>>> at each one. Turning your photo around shows this: >>>>>>> https://maps.app.goo.gl/AxRNjBuU3RadBnUM8 followed by several other >>>>>>> junctions with streets or lots that would have been potential problems. >>>>>>> >>>>>> it?s pragmatic so busy junctions are light controlled, others aren?t and >>>>>> equally side entrances aren?t but none of these are busy, >>>>>> >>>>>> cycle traffic volumes has massively increased, the few side entrances don?t >>>>>> seem to be a problem either anecdotally or in Transport for London?s data >>>>>> that there is, it?s fairly new. >>>>>> >>>>>> Roger Merriman >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I see those "terrible, dangerous" bidirectional sidepaths being built >>>>> all around here. The fact that a few timid bicyclists are afraid to >>>>> ride on them hasn't deterred the rest of us. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Ones I see and use are by some margin better designed than the stuff Frank >>>> has managed to find, ie entry on off and generally managed junctions and so >>>> on. >>>> >>>> Every chance yours are closer to mine than his, as well he?s been selective >>>> as ever. >>>> >>>> Roger Merriman >>> >>> I doubt that there is ever going to be a big movement to ban him from >>> riding on the streets and roads where he likes to ride, at least not >>> in the USA. If there is, I would definitely oppose it. >>> >>> On the other hand, Krygowski seems hell-bent on coercing everyone, or >>> even forcing them through legislation, to be more like him. Now, >>> there's a truly repulsive thought, but fortunately, he's failing on >>> both fronts. >>> >>> I rather like making my own decisions about most things. >>> >> I keep reading all this foolishness about bike paths and all the >> problems. Why not just do as we do here in Thailand? see >> https://touringthailandblog.wordpress.com/road-info/ >> Notice in many photos there is a center line and two white lines near >> the edge of the road. The area behind the white line is for bicycles, >> small motorcycles and other slow vehicles. >> >> The below shows heavy traffic over the largest holiday of the year and >> see that small left hand lane is not used by autos even in heavy >> traffic. >> https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2715106/holiday-traffic-crawling-out-of-capital >> > >The main reason is that such large roads tends to be built as bypasses, and >aren’t generally roads chosen by cyclists as they are the long way around >which is fine at 40/70mph as well you’ll by pass the towns. Sorry, the photo I posted is the main highway to N.E. Thailand and goes through many towns, the one I live in, for instance :-) -- Cheers, John B.