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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Anyone with sufficient knowledge of C knows that DD specifies
 non-terminating behavior to HHH
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 21:14:13 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 2/19/25 7:31 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 2/19/2025 3:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2025-02-18 11:26:25 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 2/18/2025 3:24 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2025-02-17 09:05:42 +0000, Fred. Zwarts said:
>>>>
>>>>> Op 16.feb.2025 om 23:51 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 4:30 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 15:58:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 2:02 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 13:24:14 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/16/2025 10:35 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 16 Feb 2025 06:51:12 -0600 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/15/2025 2:49 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 12:40:04 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/2025 2:58 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-14 00:07:23 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:20 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-13 04:21:34 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/12/2025 4:04 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-02-11 14:41:38 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD  correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That claim has already shown to be false. Nothing above 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH does not return 0. If it does DD also returns 0.
>>>>>>>>>>>> When we are referring to the above DD simulated by HHH and not
>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to get away with changing the subject to some other DD
>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhere else
>>>>>>>>>>> such as one that calls a non-aborting version of HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> then anyone with sufficient knowledge of C programming knows 
>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>> instance of DD shown above simulated by any corresponding 
>>>>>>>>>>>> instance
>>>>>>>>>>>> of HHH can possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, then that corresponding (by what?) HHH isn’t a decider.
>>>>>>>>>> I am focusing on the isomorphic notion of a termination analyzer.
>>>>>>>>> (There are other deciders that are not termination analysers.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A simulating termination analyzer correctly rejects any input 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> must be aborted to prevent its own non-termination.
>>>>>>>>> Yes, in particular itself is not such an input, because we 
>>>>>>>>> *know* that
>>>>>>>>> it halts, because it is a decider. You can’t have your cake and 
>>>>>>>>> eat it
>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>> I am not even using the confusing term "halts".
>>>>>>>> Instead I am using in its place "terminates normally".
>>>>>>>> DD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly terminate normally.
>>>>>>> What’s confusing about „halts”? I find it clearer as it does not 
>>>>>>> imply
>>>>>>> an ambiguous „abnormal termination”. How does HHH simulate DD
>>>>>>> terminating abnormally, then? Why doesn’t it terminate abnormally
>>>>>>> itself?
>>>>>>> You can substitute the term: the input DD to HHH does not need to be
>>>>>>> aborted, because the simulated decider terminates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>>>>>> int HHH(ptr P);
>>>>>>
>>>>>> int DD()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>   int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
>>>>>>   if (Halt_Status)
>>>>>>     HERE: goto HERE;
>>>>>>   return Halt_Status;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> int main()
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>   HHH(DD);
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every simulated input that must be aborted to
>>>>>> prevent the non-termination of HHH is stipulated
>>>>>> to be correctly rejected by HHH as non-terminating.
>>>>>>
>>>>> A very strange and invalid stipulation.
>>>>
>>>> It merely means that the words do not have their ordinary meaning.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unless HHH(DD) aborts its simulation of DD itself cannot possibly 
>>> terminate normally.
>>
>> That cannot be determined without examination of HHH, which is not in the
>> scope of OP.
>>
> 
> I have given everyone here all of the complete source
> code for a few years
> 
> 918-1156 // All of the lines of termination analyzer HHH
> 1355-1370 // DD() through main()
> 
> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c
> 

Yes, and then insist that those don't define the programs, because your 
HHH is NOT actually defined to be the HHH in that code, because you 
claim that HHH could do something that code doesn't do.

In other words, you claim what is in reality doesn't matter, but you are 
allowed to lie about things to prove your point.

Which just shows you have lost touch with the meaning of truth and reality.


> 
>>> Every expert in the C programming language can see this.
>>
>> They can't when they can't see HHH and even then it is not obvious,
>> so the claim on the subject line is false.
>>
>>
> 
>