Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Defining a correct simulating halt decider
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:01:09 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <dd8a6169380d9afe4eb624ea2141c89e2b9fc2b3@i2pn2.org>
References: <vb4plc$2tqeg$1@dont-email.me> <vb6o5t$3a95s$1@dont-email.me>
 <vb71a3$3b4ub$4@dont-email.me> <vbbmuc$8nbb$1@dont-email.me>
 <vbcbe4$bdtb$3@dont-email.me> <vbeoge$q2ph$1@dont-email.me>
 <vbeprp$punj$7@dont-email.me>
 <c600a691fab10473128eed2a1fad2a429ad4733f@i2pn2.org>
 <vbh2sp$19ov0$1@dont-email.me> <vbhm3c$1c7u5$12@dont-email.me>
 <vbkdph$1v80k$1@dont-email.me> <vbne7e$2g6vo$6@dont-email.me>
 <vbp1d7$2sg7q$1@dont-email.me> <vbqnqi$381t6$1@dont-email.me>
 <vbrh87$3fttk$1@dont-email.me> <vbrvln$3im2p$2@dont-email.me>
 <vbu6oa$59vd$1@dont-email.me> <vbuhsp$7g4h$1@dont-email.me>
 <vc1169$ptds$1@dont-email.me> <vc1ibt$tcfb$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 17:01:09 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="1928020"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="diqKR1lalukngNWEqoq9/uFtbkm5U+w3w6FQ0yesrXg";
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
In-Reply-To: <vc1ibt$tcfb$2@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 10831
Lines: 212

On 9/13/24 10:31 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 9/13/2024 4:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 12.sep.2024 om 13:04 schreef olcott:
>>> On 9/12/2024 2:54 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-09-11 11:41:42 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/11/2024 2:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-09-11 00:21:36 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9/10/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-09 18:19:26 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/2024 9:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-07 13:57:00 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/7/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-07 05:12:19 +0000, joes said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Fri, 06 Sep 2024 06:42:48 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/6/2024 6:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-05 13:24:20 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 2:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-03 13:00:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2024 5:25 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-02 16:38:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A halt decider is a Turing machine that computes the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mapping from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its finite string input to the behavior that this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A halt decider needn't compute the full behaviour, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only whether
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that behaviour is finite or infinite.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4 Begin Local Halt Decider 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation Stopped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence  HHH(DDD)==0 is correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice to see that you don't disagree with what said.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unvortunately I can't agree with what you say.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH terminates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> os DDD obviously terminates, too. No valid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH never reaches it final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If that iis true it means that HHH called by DDD does not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> return and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore is not a ceicder.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed HHH is a decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does simulating it change about that?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If the simulation is incorrect it may change anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, a correct simultation faithfully imitates the original
>>>>>>>>>> behaviour.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A correct emulation obeys the x86 machine code even
>>>>>>>>> if this machine code catches the machine on fire.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is impossible for an emulation of DDD by HHH to
>>>>>>>>> reach machine address 00002183 AND YOU KNOW IT!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A correct emulation of DDD does reach the machine address 
>>>>>>>> 0000217f and
>>>>>>>> a little later 00002183.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *That is counter-factual and you cannot possibly show otherwise*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A halt decider is required to predict about the actual execution,
>>>>>> not a couterfactual assumption.
>>>>>
>>>>> False assumption.
>>>>
>>>> It is not an assumption.
>>>>
>>>> "In computability theory, the halting problem is the problem of
>>>> determining, from a description of an arbitrary computer program
>>>> and an input, whether the program will finish running, or continue
>>>> to run forever." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
>>>>
>>>> That definition obviously contains what I said above.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is ridiculously stupid to simply ignore the verified
>>> fact that DDD calls HHH(DDD) in recursive emulation and
>>> DDD DOES NOT call HHH1(DDD) in recursive emulation.
>>>
>>
>> That fact is not ignored. But there are similarities and differences 
>> between these two cases. The similarities are that there are 
>> recursion, but neither in the first case, nor in the second case there 
>> are *infinite* recursions.
> 
> You can't even get the most basic facts correctly.
> There is no recursion what-so-ever between HHH1 and DDD.

But that is irrelevent, as recursion is ALWAYS first most between a 
program and itself, and if HHH is claiming that DDD is "infinitely 
recursive" then that relationship of DDD recursing with itself would be 
evident to HHH1 too.

The problem you have is there is a FINITELY recursive relationship 
between DDD and HHH, due to a nature of HHH that HHH can't understand 
about itself, that HHH1 can.

Thus HHH just can't CORRECTLY determine the behavior of DDD, since it 
can't correctly determine what its own behavior would be.

Part of the problem with your arguement is you just don't understand the 
actual meaning of correct emulation, or of what a "program" is, and tjus 
you can't see your own stupidity.


> 
> _DDD()
> [00002177] 55         push ebp
> [00002178] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [0000217a] 6877210000 push 00002177
> [0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d7
> [00002184] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [00002187] 5d         pop ebp
> [00002188] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002188]
> 
> _main()
> [00002197] 55         push ebp
> [00002198] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [0000219a] 6877210000 push 00002177
> [0000219f] e863f3ffff call 00001507
> [000021a4] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [000021a7] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> [000021a9] 5d         pop ebp
> [000021aa] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [000021aa]
> 
>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>   address   address   data      code       language
>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> [00002197][001037fb][00000000] 55         push ebp
> [00002198][001037fb][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [0000219a][001037f7][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
> [0000219f][001037f3][000021a4] e863f3ffff call 00001507 ; call HHH1
> New slave_stack at:10389f
> 
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138a7
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========