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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Ben Bacarisse fails understand that deciders COMPUTE THE MAPPING
 FROM INPUTS
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2024 19:39:35 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 8/28/24 7:57 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 8/28/2024 4:06 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 15:07 schreef olcott:
>>> On 8/27/2024 3:58 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 01:03 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 8/26/2024 7:42 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23/08/2024 22:07, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>> joes <noreply@example.org> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Am Wed, 21 Aug 2024 20:55:52 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Professor Sipser clearly agreed that an H that does a finite 
>>>>>>>>>> simulation
>>>>>>>>>> of D is to predict the behavior of an unlimited simulation of D.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the simulator *itself* would not abort. The H called by D is,
>>>>>>>>> by construction, the same and *does* abort.
>>>>>>>> We don't really know what context Sipser was given.  I got in 
>>>>>>>> touch at
>>>>>>>> the time so do I know he had enough context to know that PO's 
>>>>>>>> ideas were
>>>>>>>> "wacky" and that had agreed to what he considered a "minor remark".
>>>>>>>> Since PO considers his words finely crafted and key to his 
>>>>>>>> so-called
>>>>>>>> work I think it's clear that Sipser did not take the "minor 
>>>>>>>> remark" he
>>>>>>>> agreed to to mean what PO takes it to mean!  My own take if that he
>>>>>>>> (Sipser) read it as a general remark about how to determine some 
>>>>>>>> cases,
>>>>>>>> i.e. that D names an input that H can partially simulate to 
>>>>>>>> determine
>>>>>>>> it's halting or otherwise.  We all know or could construct some 
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> cases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exactly my reading.  It makes Sipser's agreement natural, because 
>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>> both correct [with sensible interpretation of terms], and moreover
>>>>>>> describes an obvious strategy that a partial decider might use 
>>>>>>> that can
>>>>>>> decide halting for some specific cases.  No need for Sipser to be 
>>>>>>> deceptive
>>>>>>> or misleading here, when the truth suffices.  (In particular no 
>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>> employ "tricksy" vacuous truth get out clauses just to get PO off 
>>>>>>> his back
>>>>>>> as some have suggested.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, and it fits with his thinking it a "trivial remark".  Mind you I
>>>>>> can't help I feeling really annoyed that a respected academic is 
>>>>>> having
>>>>>> his name repeated dragged into this nonsense by PO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That aside, it's such an odd way to present an argument: "I 
>>>>>> managed to
>>>>>> trick X into saying 'yes' to something vague".  In any reasonable
>>>>>> collegiate exchange you'd go back and check: "So even when D is
>>>>>> constructed from H, H can return based on what /would/ happen if H 
>>>>>> did
>>>>>> not stop simulating so that H(D,D) == false is correct even though 
>>>>>> D(D)
>>>>>> halts?".  Just imagine what Sipser would say to that!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Academic exchange thrives on clarity.  Cranks thrive on smoke and
>>>>>> mirrors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Try to point to the tiniest lack of clarity in this fully
>>>>> specified concrete example.
>>>>>
>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>> {
>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>    return;
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>
>>>>> HHH computes the mapping from DDD to behavior that never reaches
>>>>> its "return" statement on the basis of the x86 emulation of DDD
>>>>> by HHH according to the semantics of the x86 language.
>>>>
>>>> Only, because the simulation stopped, so that it skipped the halting 
>>>> part.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For all the  years people said that this simulation is incorrect
>>>>> never realizing that they were disagreeing with the semantics
>>>>> of the x86 language.
>>>>
>>>> No, all these years you did not realise that the simulation deviated 
>>>> from the semantics of the x86 language by skipping the last few 
>>>> instructions of a halting program.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *The abort code has been disabled*
>>> *The abort code has been disabled*
>>> *The abort code has been disabled*
> 
>> So, you changed the subject to another input for the simulator.
> 
> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>      until H correctly determines that its
>      *simulated D would never stop running unless aborted* then
> 
> I proved the *simulated DDD would never stop running unless aborted*
> I proved the *simulated DDD would never stop running unless aborted*
> I proved the *simulated DDD would never stop running unless aborted*

Nope, you proved the Simulation of DDD by HHH would never reach a final 
state.

That you can't tell the difference between the statements shows your 
ignorance/

> 
>> That other input will most probably not halt. And the simulator fails 
>> to produce the correct prediction.
>> This is completely irrelevant for the different input where the abort 
>> code is enabled.
>>
> 
>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>

But ONLY if it correct proved the condtions that are not true.

The fact that you confuse the (partial) simulation of DDD by HHH with 
the actual behavior of DDD is your funny-mental problem of not 
understanding the differtence between Truth and Knowledge.

Sorry, you are just proving your stupidity.

> 
>      HHH can abort its simulation of DDD and correctly report that DDD
>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
> 
>> Can we now return to the original input that has the abort code 
>> enabled and which halts and for which the correct prediction must be 
>> that it halts?
> 
>