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From: shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv
Subject: Re: What Did You Watch? 2025-02-08 (Saturday)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2025 18:38:21 -0500
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On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 14:54:37 -0700, anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net>
wrote:

>BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 9, 2025 at 10:26:35 AM PST, "Arthur Lipscomb"
>> <arthur@alum.calberkeley.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Captain America: Civil War (4K disc) 2016 movie set in the MCU.  After a 
>>> mission goes bad Thaddeus Ross shows up with a proposal to reign in the 
>>> Avengers. The last time we saw Ross we was a general, now he's the U.S. 
>>> Secretary of State.  At this rate, maybe one day he'll even be 
>>> President. Anyway, after the ultimatum is delivered one group of 
>>> Avengers lead by Iron Man decide to sign on to the new restraints while 
>>> another group lead by Captain America decide to go their own way.
>> 
>
>I have a problem with this and a more basic level. Tony Stark should’ve
>told these people to go fuck themselves. And Steve Rogers should’ve bent
>over to take it up the poop shoot. I don’t know who decided they should be
>on the wrong side of things.

True as Steve is the Boy Scout who always follows the rules, not Tony.

>
>> I re-watched this recently, too, and I have to say, the scene where Ross sits
>> them all down and lectures them always angers me, particularly when he focuses
>> on what happened in New York, implying that the Avengers are responsible for
>> all the damage and (presumed) deaths that occurred.
>> 
>
>Yeah, he watched a different movie than I did
>
>
>> Excuse me? How is *any* of that damage the fault of the Avengers? If they
>> hadn't been there, the city literally would have been completely destroyed by
>> the Chitauri (as well as the rest of the earth, eventually) and when Cap
>> weakly tries to make that important point, Hurt responds with "But at what
>> cost?"
>> 
>> Cap should have responded, "Excuse me, motherfucker? I know you didn't just
>> say that. Wasn't it you assholes in the government that launched a fucking
>> *nuke* at Manhattan in response to the invasion? The only reason New York is
>> still standing at all and isn't a radioactive slag heap is that we took the
>> time-- in the middle of a pitched battle-- to *also* stop you assholes from
>> killing millions of innocent people. Now you want us to let the same people
>> who wanted to nuke New York to start calling the shots with us, too? GTFO."
>> 
>> That whole scene just pisses me off, both for Ross's hypocritical arrogance
>
>Well, I’ve always hated Ross all the way back to the mid 1960s. He was
>designed to be the guy you hate.
>
>
>> and for the way the team just sat there and took it rather than pointing out
>> the gaping holes in his bullshit.
>> 
>> As for the Accords, I want to know what justifies requiring Romanov and Barton
>> to register with the government. At least in these movies, they're not
>> enhanced, either biologically or technologically. They're just people. One is
>> good with a bow/arrow, 
>
>I note your “at least“ above, so I’m sure we’ve probably discussed this but
>at some point, they’ve decided that Barton is in fact enhanced, as he
>obviously has to be because the shots he makes are impossible otherwise. I
>forget what they settled on if he’s got magic eyes somehow or is actually
>seeing three seconds in the future. I think the latter is what they had to
>have in order for him to help brie Larson murder Bruce Banner.
>
>the other exceptionally skilled in hand-to-hand combat.
>> If that's the criteria in these "Sokovia Accords", then everyone who qualifies
>> as Marksman on the pistol range or achieves a black belt in martial arts would
>> have to register and be monitored and controlled by the United Nations.
>> 
>
>There’s also an implementation problem. How do they know how all of these
>people are doing all of these things? Who told them about Mike Murdock’s
>Mystery radar sense?
>
>
>> Seems like there'd be just a few constitutional issues involved there,  at
>> least for the Americans who met the standards of the Accords.
>> 
>> And since, per AGENTS OF SHIELD, the Accords weren't limited to just the
>> Avengers but rather any "enhanced person", why was someone like the Son of
>> Coul, who was technologically enhanced with that nifty bionic hand that could
>> do all sorts of tricks, not required to register, 
>
>Because per Josh Wheden, the son of Cole died in the first avengers movie. 
>In the movies he’s dead. In the TV show he’s only secretly alive. Either
>way I can see where they can’t put him on the list.
>
>but Tony Stark was? And how
>> much tech assistance triggers the reporting requirement? After all, a gun is
>> tech, so does merely carrying a gun require registration? If not, then where's
>> the line between a holstered gun and an Iron Man suit that imposes a
>> submission-to-the-United Nations requirement on a person?
>> 
>
>Maybe they registered Tony Starks heart and not the suit. Did they register
>war machine?
>

If that's the case should anyone with an artificial heart or even a
pacemaker be added to the registry? What about people with one of
those insulin pumps. Now neither an insulin pump or pacemaker make you
perform better than a normal human but then neither does Stark's
heart. It's powerful but does nothing until you add on the bits of the
suit.

>> And what qualifies as "enhanced"? Would someone with those kangaroo-like leg
>> prosthetics be considered "enhanced"? I mean, they *can* run and jump faster
>> and longer than people with normal human legs, after all. 
>
>Yeah, there has to be some sort of limiting scale. If your bionic legs let
>you walk half as fast as I do you’re still enhanced, but does it count? If
>you can walk twice as fast as I do, do you trip something?
>
>And then there's
>> Thor, who isn't enhanced at all. He's just not human. He's normal for his
>> species.
>
>Actually, Thor is not only top end of his species, but he also has a magic
>belt given him by Odin that doubles his strength. And he’s got Mjolnir.
>He’s definitely enhanced.
>
>
>> 
>> Those "accords" presented so many legal and due process challenges, which 
>> both the show and the movies gloss over (for good reason--- most people don't 
>> care about that stuff), but which the law geek in me would love for them to
>> have addressed.
>
>Yep.