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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: sci.logic,comp.theory
Subject: Re: Truth Bearer or Truth Maker
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 19:56:58 -0400
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On 7/24/24 6:07 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/24/2024 4:44 PM, Mild Shock wrote:
>> But obviously sometimes sentences are
>> decidable, and sometimes not. Since
>> this depends on "True" and "L".
>>
> 
> But when we talk about "decidability" this is actually
> only a misnomer for self-contradictory.

But it isn't, and you only think that because you don't understand it.

> 
>> Actually modern logic does it much simpler,
>> you don't need to prescribe or explain what
>> a "True" and "L" does, in that you repeat
>>
> 
> Tarski "proved" that True(L,x) cannot be consistently defined
> because he was simply too stupid to know that the Liar Paradox
> is not a truth bearer. Most of the greatest experts in this
> field are still too stupid.

No, he PROVED that the grammer of the system allowed the formation of 
the sentence.

The "True" predicate doesn't need the expression to be a truth bearer, 
just and expression that fits the grammer of the language.

The Truth predicate of a non-truth bearing statement is just false, 
which doesn't imply the sententence itself is false.

> 
>> nonsense like for example:
>>
>>  > A truth maker is any sequence of truth preserving operations
>>  > that links an expression x of language L to its semantic meaning
>>  > in language L. The lack of such a connection in L to x or ~x
>>  > means that x is not a truth-bearer in L.
>>
>> Its much much easier to define a "logic".
>> You just take a language of sentences S.
>> And define a "logic" L as a subset of S.
>>
> 
> No we specify the whole foundation of every True(L,x)
> that includes logic then we can make concrete examples
> that are simple enough that ordinary people can understand
> the mathematical incompleteness is nonsense.

And you just shows that your logic system doesn't meet the basic 
requirements of the logic system.

> 
> "A fish" can never be proven or refuted because it is
> not a declarative sentence.

And thus True(L, "a fish") will be false, assuming "a fish" is a 
sentence that fits the grammer of L, which it very well might not.

That seems to be part of your problem, the only "Languge" you seem to 
understand are the natural ones, not that actually FORMAL language of logic.

> 
> "What time is it?" can never be proven or refuted
> because it is not a declarative sentence.
> 
> "This sentence is not true" can never be proven or
> refuted because it is not a semantically correct
> declarative sentence.

And thus, if a grammatically correct sentence in the language, the 
predicate True(L, "This sentence is not true") will be false.

> 
> 
>> You can imagine that L was defined as follows:
>>
>> L := { A e S | True(L, A) }
>>
>> But this is not necessarely the case how L is
>> conceived, or how L comes into being.
>>
> 
> I have no idea what the Hell A e S means.
> If you mean A ∈ S then just say that.
> 
>> So a logic L is just a set of sentences. You
>> don't need the notion truth maker or truth bearer
>> at all, all you need to say you have some L ⊆ S.
>>
> 
> The foundation of analytic truth is a set of sentences
> that have been stipulated to have the semantic property
> of Boolean true. Care are animals even if physical reality
> never existed.

Right, and EVERYTHING that can be derived from those sentences in the 
sysstem, even if by an INFINITE chain of correct deducgtions

> 
>> You can then study such L's. For example:
>> - classical logic
>> - intuitionistic logic
>> - etc..
>>
> 
> I don't go through all that convoluted mess.
> I start at the top of the hierarchy.
> 
> True(L,x) means x has been stipulated to be true or x
> is derived by applying truth preserving operations to
> stipulated truths.

Right, and a possibly infinite set of them.

And Tarski shows that if a True predicate exists, it makes the system 
inconsistant, and thus with the requriement at the beginning that the 
system is consistant, it shows that a True predicate that meets the 
requirements can not exist.

> 
>> olcott schrieb:
>>> On 7/24/2024 3:34 PM, Mild Shock wrote:
>>>> But truth bearer has another meaning.
>>>> The more correct terminology is anyway
>>>> truth maker, you have to shift away the
>>>>
>>>> focus from the formula and think it is
>>>> a truth bearer, this is anyway wrong,
>>>> since you have two additional parameters
>>>> your "True" and your language "L".
>>>>
>>>> So all that we see here in expression such as:
>>>>
>>>> [~] True(L, [~] A)
>>>>
>>>> Is truth making, and not truth bearing.
>>>> In recent years truth making has received
>>>> some attention, there are interesting papers
>>>> concerning truth makers. And it has
>>>>
>>>> even a SEP article:
>>>>
>>>> Truthmakers
>>>> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truthmakers/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because the received view has never gotten past Quine's
>>> nonsense rebuttal of the analytic synthetic distinction
>>> no other expert on truth-maker theory made much progress.
>>>
>>> {true on the basis of meaning expressed in language}
>>> conquers any of Quine's gibberish.
>>>
>>> A truth maker is any sequence of truth preserving operations
>>> that links an expression x of language L to its semantic meaning
>>> in language L. The lack of such a connection in L to x or ~x
>>> means that x is not a truth-bearer in L.
>>>
>>>> A world of truthmakers?
>>>> https://philipp.philosophie.ch/handouts/2005-5-5-truthmakers.pdf
>>>>
>>>
>>> This seems at least reasonably plausible yet deals with things besides
>>> {true on the basis of meaning expressed in language}
>>>
>>>> olcott schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>  > The key difference is that we no long use the misnomer
>>>>  > "undecidable" sentence and instead call it for what it
>>>>  > really is an expression that is not a truth bearer, or
>>>>  > proposition in L.
>>>
>>
>