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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?
 --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 22:16:40 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On 7/23/24 10:19 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/23/2024 1:40 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-07-22 14:51:57 +0000, olcott said:
>>
>>> On 7/22/2024 3:26 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-07-21 13:58:56 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/21/2024 4:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-07-20 13:03:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/20/2024 4:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-19 14:18:05 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When a Self-Modifying Turing Machine can change itself to become
>>>>>>>>> any other Turing Machine then it can eliminate the pathological
>>>>>>>>> relationship to its input.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It never was a Turing machine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A self modifying TM is merely a TM description that is
>>>>>>> simulated by a UTM and has access to itself on the UTM
>>>>>>> tape.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it is not.
>>>>>
>>>>> I invented it thus that is the specification of my invention.
>>>>
>>>> The term "Turing machine" is already reserved and your "invention"
>>>> is not one of the machines that are called "Turing macnines".
>>>>
>>>> Besides, you have not shown the "invention" so there is no
>>>> basis to claim that you have invented anything.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A  Self-Modifying Turing Machine is merely a conventional Turing Machine
>>> Description x that is being simulated by a conventional Universal Turing
>>> Machine y such that x is provided access to itself on y's tape.
>>>
>>>>>> A TM description describes a TM that does not change itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> X is not typically understood to do Y therefore it is
>>>>> impossible for X to do Y is incorrect reasoning.
>>>>
>>>> That is a different situation. If someting is not understood one can be
>>>> wrong about it. But even a very superficial understanding of Turing
>>>> machines suffices for determination that a machine that modifis itself
>>>> is not a Turing machine.
>>>>
>>>>> That you fail to understand that an emulated x86 program can
>>>>> modify itself to change its own behavior as long as it knows
>>>>> its own machine address is merely ignorance on your part.
>>>>
>>>> Your false claim about my understanding reveals that you are a liar.
>>>> Thank you, but we already knew.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of clueless wonders*
>>>
>>> Anyone with sufficient software engineering skill can write a
>>> C function that changes its own machine code while it is running.
>>> That you say that I am lying about this is ridiculously stupid
>>> on your part.
>>>
>>>>> When a simulated Turing Machine Description is provided
>>>>> access to itself on the UTM tape it can do the same thing.
>>>>> Rigid minded people incorrectly conflate unconventional
>>>>> for impossible.
>>>>
>>>> It is not a Turing machine desription if it describes a 
>>>> self-modification.
>>>>
>>>
>>> WRONG!
>>>
>>> It is not [the conventional notion of] a Turing machine description 
>>> if it describes a self-modification, [yet self-modification is by no 
>>> means
>>> impossible].
>>
>> The input language of an UTM does not contain any expression that could
>> denote self-modification.
> 
> Tape head move, write value. The new idea is that the TM
> description has access to its own location on the UTM tape,
> unconventional not impossible.
> 

Of course it is, by the definition of a UTM and a Turing machine.

You are just proving you don't know what you are talking about.

>>  In that sense self-modification is inpossible.
> 
> Not all all in my paper the SMTM merely gets rid of the infinite
> loop as the accept state.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307509556_Self_Modifying_Turing_Machine_SMTM_Solution_to_the_Halting_Problem_concrete_example
> 
> Google has lots of hits for [self modifying Turing machine]
> 
>> It you want to describe a self-modifying machine you need a different
>> description language. If you want to simulate a self-modifying machine
>> you need a simulator that can understand a description language for
>> descriptions of self-modifying machines.
>>
> 
> In my example in my paper the tape head simply moves to
> the state transition to an infinite loop and writes
> final accept state.

But where is that on the actual tape of the actual Turing Machine?



> 
> Changing this
> [002]["e"]----->(001, 003) // Transitions to (qa)
> 
> Into this:
> [002]["e"]----->(001, 1234) // Recognizes "the"
> 
>> If the self-modifying machine can be simulated by a Turing machine it
>> cannot compute anything a Turing machine cannot compute.
>>
> 
> It gets rid of the infinite loop at its accept state.
> 

Nope, it show that you don't understand what you are doing.