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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a
 new basis ---x86 code is a liar?
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 22:42:44 -0500
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <e51f21daadd358ef13801c918106c2fdc65a9f6b@i2pn2.org>
References: <vfli1h$fj8s$1@dont-email.me> <vg97j5$kb67$2@dont-email.me>
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On 11/6/24 10:09 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 11/6/2024 6:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 11/6/24 8:16 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 11/6/2024 5:37 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 11/5/24 10:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 11/5/2024 7:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/5/24 8:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/5/2024 6:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/5/24 12:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/5/2024 6:03 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 10:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 8:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 8:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 6:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 7:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 6:07 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 11:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 10:19 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 7:46 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 8:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 8:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What would an unbounded emulation do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep on emulating for an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something you don't seem to understand as part of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting isn't just did reach a final state in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some finite number of steps, but that it will 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEVER reach a final state even if you process an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would an unbounded emulation of DDD by HHH halt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not a valid question, as your HHH does not do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation, but aborts after a defined time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Now you are contradicting yourself*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU JUST SAID THAT HHH NEED NOT DO AN UNBOUNDED
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EMULATION TO PREDICT WHAT AN UNBOUNDED EMULATION 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WOULD DO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. it doesn't NEED to do the operation, just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> report what an unbounded emulation would do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You asked about an "unbounded emulation of DDD by HHH" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that isn't possible, as HHH doesn't do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 12:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > On 11/3/24 9:39 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> The finite string input to HHH specifies that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> MUST EMULATE ITSELF emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Right, and it must CORRECTLY determine what an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > emulation of that input would do, even if its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > only lets it emulate a part of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, it doesn't need to DO the unbounded emulatiohn 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just figure out what it would do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just like we can compute:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... + 1/2^n + ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ether by adding the infinite number of terms, or we can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice something about it to say it will sum, in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite limit, to 2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the same way, if HHH can see something in its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation that tells it THIS this program can NEVER 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt, it can report it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone with sufficient technical competence can see that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the unbounded emulation of DDD emulated by HHH can never 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because the HHH that is given doesn't do that, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the only one that matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 12:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > On 11/3/24 9:39 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> The finite string input to HHH specifies that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> MUST EMULATE ITSELF emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Right, and it must CORRECTLY determine what an unbounded
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > emulation of that input would do, even if its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > only lets it emulate a part of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are going to keep contradicting yourself
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to stop looking at anything you say.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And where is the contradiction?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH doesn't need to do the unlimited emulation, just say 
>>>>>>>>>>>> what the unlimited emulation by the unlimited emulator 
>>>>>>>>>>>> (which WILL be a different program) will do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That is what I have been saying all along.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, you agree that HHH1's emulation to the completion shows 
>>>>>>>>>> that the complete emulation of the input to HHH does halt, and 
>>>>>>>>>> thus the correct answer for HHH to give for *THIS* input, 
>>>>>>>>>> which has implicitly included *THIS* HHH as part of it, is 
>>>>>>>>>> that it halts.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nothing like this.
>>>>>>>>> You continue to fail to understand that halting
>>>>>>>>> requires reaching the "return" instruction final
>>>>>>>>> halt state. DDD emulated by HHH never does this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the emulation by HHH isn't the correct measure of DDD 
>>>>>>>> reaching its return statement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well we did get somewhere on this so that is more progress.
>>>>>>> Only reaching the final state is halting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And only something that continues to the end shows that, an 
>>>>>> emulation that aborts doesn't show that the input is non-halting 
>>>>>> unless it can prove that the unaborted emulation of that EXACT 
>>>>>> PROGRAM would never halt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By the correct meaning of the statement, it is just false.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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