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From: will.dockery@gmail.com (W.Dockery)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: The Lime sock on Stephan Pickering and NAMBLA
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 22:28:04 +0000
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On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 13:06:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> Since MMP is trying to disrupt his psychoanalysis by attemptint to
>> change the subject to whatever he can think of, and since I don't want
>> to let his attempts pass without comment, I'm being forced to open new
>> threads on some of it.
>> From: https://www.novabbs.com/arts/post.php?id=255645
>>
>> On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 12:42:11 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>> On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 5:55:00 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>> It seems that Senetto took the lead in attempting to drive Stephan
>>>>> Pickering from the newsgroup though, but that may have been fueled by
>>>>> Senetto's obvious Antisemitism.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for reminding me. It was actually MMP who did that by bringing
>>>> NAMBLA to the group. That triggered Jim, just the way MFH triggered him
>>>> after he was told that it was really about child molesting.
>>>
>>> Why do you lie so much, George?
>>
>> Why do you project so much, MMP? (That's a rhetorical question. As noted
>> in
>> your psychoanalysis, you are playing the preemption game you learned
>> from
>> Peter J. Ross.)
>>
>>> (That's a rhetorical question, as you've already intimated that your
>>> pathological lying stems from you having been abused as a child.)
>>
>> No, Lying Michael: I have never said, or even "intimated" (!) that I was
>> pathological, lying, or
>> "abused as a child".
>>
>>> When Pickles joined the group, he simply posted ongoing entries in a
>>> proposed bibliography of some Magnum Opus he had been working on for
>>> years.  To the best of my recollection, this tome-in-progress was an
>>> attempt to tie all of literature, culture, and history together via
>>> Jewish themes explored in Bob Dylan songs.  Suffice to say that Pickles
>>> had gone off the deep end decades before.
>>
>> Anyone who engages in deep scholarship on a subject can appear to have
>> "gone off the deep end" to someone who knows nothing of the subject.
>>
>>> I attempted to engage Pickles in several conversations regarding his
>>> posts, but he either ignored them, or spat back some angry, and
>>> impolite, remarks.
>>
>> Similarly anyone who engages in deep scholarship on a subject cannot be
>> expected to appreciate having a total ignoramus on the subject trying to
>> explain it to him. So while I don't condone his impoliteness, I can
>> fully understand it.
>>
>>> Since I didn't relish the idea of getting into a
>>> flamewar with another nutjob (he reminded me of the 50s group's nutter,
>>> "PhillyGuy"), I took to ignoring his posts.  Since he only posted once
>>> or twice a week, ignoring him required little to no effort.
>>
>> You handled that well, IMO. "Skip and ignore" the posts and posters
>> you don't like; as long as they stay out of your face, everyone wins.
>>
>>> At some point Jim and Pickles got into a flamewar regarding Ginsberg.  I
>>> don't recall who started it.
>>
>> Well, allow me to refresh your memory. Jim and Stephan first got into
>> flamewars after you formed Team Monkey with him and NastyGoon (NG), a
>> Pickering
>> troll. The first thing you did was invite NG into Jim's Sunday Sampler,
>> where
>> they (NG's preferred pronoun) would write trollpoems about Stephan. The
>> result would be Stephan jumping into the Sampler, which would result in
>> JIm
>> flaming him and others (for example, Richard Oakley) also being turned
>> against Jim. I doubt that either Jim nor STephan realized that you were
>> manipulating them for that outcome.
>>
>> After Jim and Stephan became engaged in a prolonged flamewar, both on
>> and
>> off the Sampler, the second thing you did was start flooding the group
>> with
>> a nasty, libellous document that NG had written.
>>
>> The third thing you did, a month or so of that, when Jim and Stephan
>> were thoroughly
>> engaged with each other, you went deep diving outside the group for
>> information on NAMBLA, and found a quotation from Allan Ginsberg
>> ("I have never had sex with anyone under 15" or WTTE), which you began
>> posting here, calling Ginsberg a "pedophile" (or predator); and then
>> when others objected to that (like Stephan, Will, or myself), you began
>> calling those people "pedophiles" as well.
>>
>>> Most likely Jim had condemned Ginsberg as
>>> a child molester, and Pickles (who worshipped Ginsberg) spazzed.
>>
>> That is a fair summary of what I just said, though you left out that you
>> (and Jim)
>> were calling Stephan a child molester as well. No one appreciates being
>> called names like that by cowardly trolls on the internet.
>>
>>> Their
>>> fight had been going for what had become a fairly large-sized thread
>>> when I decided to see what all the bruhaha was about.
>>
>>> (As I said, I'd
>>> been ignoring Pickles' threads, and having no interest in Ginsberg, had
>>> been avoiding this thread as well.)
>>>
>>> When I read Jim's accusations, I google Ginsberg and discovered that
>>> he'd openly discussed having had sex with minors, hinted (as strongly as
>>> possible, considering that statutory rape is a criminal offense) at
>>> having had sex with boys aged 14 or under (he said that was the age when
>>> boys were most desirable), was a member of NAMBLA and had been serving
>>> as that organization's poster boy, publicly championing them and their
>>> agenda (to legalize sex between adults and children).
>>
>> Indeed, Ginsberg and Camille Paglia both "championed" NAMBLA's right to
>> free speech on that contentious subject, and in fact led their
>> counter-parade when they were kicked out of NY's Pride parade.
>>
>>> I was appalled that a public figure was able to be a member of NAMBLA,
>>> and to speak about having had sex with minors, and was somehow not only
>>> a free man, but was still considered a renowned poet and even a cultural
>>> icon.  I therefore joined in the argument, backing Jim.
>>
>> Actually, as I remember, you did not merely join in their flame wars,
>> but began disrupting every thread Stephan was on (chiefly with Will), to
>> flame him about it - which of course turned Will against you as well.
>>
>>> I don't know if I was the first to introduce NAMBLA into the group.
>>
>> Not at all. That was Chuck Lysaght years before that. He was roundly
>> spanked by
>> jr sherman, who pointed out that all Ginsberg championed was their (and
>> Ginsberg's) right to talk about the subject, and it died off. AFAIK, you
>> were the first to revive it.
>>
>>> I'm
>>> sure that it must have come up once or twice in the 15 - 20 years of
>>> flame wars before my arrival -- but whatever.  I'm pretty sure that I
>>> was the one who'd introduced it into that particular argument.
>>>
>>> In an attempt to defend Ginsberg, Pickles told us that he had been to
>>> NAMBLA meetings, listened to speakers at NAMBLA conventions, and taken
>>> NAMBLA members out to dinner on several occasions, and could attest that
>>> they were all good people.
>>
>> Stephan said a lot of things, on memory and without check, some of which
>> were demonstrably untrue. (For example, his alleged dinners with NAMBLA
>> were said to take place during Dylan's Rolling Thunder tour, which was
>> years before NAMBLA was even founded.) there was no reason to trust
>> his memory of any ot that.
>>
>>> NancyGene quoted posts Pickles had made in another forum, wherein he'd
>>> argued that "legal age" was a meaningless concept, that the majority of
>>> civilizations and cultures had no such age, that incest was not only
>>> common in other cultures, but was a desirable thing.
>>
>> Yes, through all this NG continued to troll Stephan, and posted a lot
>> of scurrilous claims about what he'd said (real, misprepresented, or
>> completely
>> made up). I didn't bother to check them, but (having been trolled by NG
>> myself) I would nt vouch for their accuracy.
>>
>> IIRC, Ginsberg said that "legal age" was an arbitrary concept, which of
>> course it is (just look at the USA, where the age of consent is
>> different from
>> state to state). he did not say that there was no age of cnnsent in
>> other
>> states, just that it varies. (For example, in much of the the Moslem
>> world,
>> the age at which a girl can be married is 9.) As for incest, NG found
>> and
>> quoted a statement Stephan made ridiculing "rape" charge laid aginat  a
>> mother
>> who'd had sex with her 17-year-old son.
>>
>>> Pickles not only defended his stance in said quotes, but further
>>> informed us that he'd had sex with 14-year old girls (impregnating one
>>> of them), and told us that he felt it was perfectly fine to have sex
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