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From: Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD specifies recursive emulation to HHH and halting to HHH1
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2025 07:01:52 -0400
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Message-ID: <e916bd7901968e2927324d9b75bee493714d6fed@i2pn2.org>
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On 3/28/25 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 3/28/2025 9:36 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/28/25 10:13 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2025 8:08 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 3/28/25 6:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 3/28/2025 5:30 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 6:09 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 3:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 4:30 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 2:24 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 3:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/28/2025 4:43 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 28.mrt.2025 om 03:13 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/25 9:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:38 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:34 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:12 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:02 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 7:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:27 PM, dbush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 1:50 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2025 2:18 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.mrt.2025 om 04:09 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2025 8:22 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov  ebp,esp  ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add  esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop  ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting is that the machine won't reach 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its final staste even if an unbounded number 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of steps are emulated. Since HHH doesn't do 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, it isn't showing non-halting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by any HHH will never reach its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH1 reaches its final state in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a finite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not very interesting to know whether a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulator reports that it is unable to reach the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end of the simulation of a program that halts in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That IS NOT what HHH is reporting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly rejects DDD because DDD correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, HHH is not a halt decider because 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is not computing the required mapping:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:19:42 PM UTC-5, olcott 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > In other words you could find any error in my 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> post so you resort to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > lame tactic of ad hominem personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/2024 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clueless wonders*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I corrected your error dozens of times and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore these corrections and mindlessly repeat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your error like a bot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is what you've been doing for the last three years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Projection, as always.  I'll add the above to the list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TM's cannot possibly ever report on the behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the direct execution of another TM. I proved
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this many times in may ways. Ignoring these proofs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IT NOT ANY FORM OF REBUTTAL.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure they can.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WHere is your proof? And what actual accepted principles 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is is based on?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No TM can take another directly executed TM as an input
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Turing computable functions only compute the mapping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from inputs to outputs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If A TM can only compute the mapping from *its* input to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> *its* output, it cannot be wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Taking a wild guess does not count as computing the mapping.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> False.  The only requirement is to map a member of the input 
>>>>>>>>>> domain to a member of the output domain as per the requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If it does so in all cases, the mapping is computed.  It 
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't matter how it's done.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unless an input is transformed into an output
>>>>>>>>> on the basis of a syntactic or semantic property
>>>>>>>>> of this input it is not a Turing computable function.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> int StringLength(char *S)
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>    return 5;
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does not compute the string length of any string.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> False.  It computes the length of all strings of length 5.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It does not compute (a sequence of steps of an
>>>>>>> algorithm that derive an output on the basis of
>>>>>>> an input) jack shit it makes a guess.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't matter. If the requirement is to return 5 for strings that 
>>>>>> have a length of 5, it meets the requirement.
>>>>>
>>>>> The actual requirement is to compute the mapping
>>>>> from a finite string to its length using a sequence
>>>>> of algorithmic steps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Likewise for halting. Compute the mapping from a
>>>>> finite string of machine code to the behavior that
>>>>> this finite string specifies.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With that specifcation DEFINED as the behavior of the machine 
>>>> described when it is actually run.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In other words the halting problem is defined to
>>> not be allowed to use computable functions and it
>>> is this screwball definition that prevents the
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