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From: joes <noreply@example.org>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2024 18:04:43 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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Am Tue, 16 Jul 2024 08:50:12 -0500 schrieb olcott:
> On 7/16/2024 3:17 AM, joes wrote:
>> Am Mon, 15 Jul 2024 15:56:21 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>> On 7/15/2024 3:51 PM, joes wrote:
>>>> Am Mon, 15 Jul 2024 08:51:14 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>> On 7/15/2024 3:37 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-07-15 03:41:24 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>> On 7/14/2024 9:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/14/24 9:27 PM, olcott wrote:

>>>>>>> Turing machines only operate on finite strings they do not operate
>>>>>>> on other Turing machines *dumbo*
>>>>>> That's right. But the finite string can be a description of a
>>>>>> Turing machine.
>>>>> No that is wrong. The finite string must encode a Turing machine.
>>>> Same difference.
>>> Not at all. The huge mistake of all these years is that people
>>> stupidly expected that HHH to report on the behavior of its own
>>> executing Turing machine. The theory of computation forbids that.
>> Encoding = description.
>> HHH isn't executed by anything.
> // HHH is not allowed to report on this DDD int main() { DDD(); }
> invokes HHH(DDD);
The outer DDD? HHH doesn't report on that. That DDD isn't even a TM
that executes (simulates) HHH.

>> It simply reports on a string that represents itself.
>> 
>>>>>> That way a Turing machine can say someting about another Turing
>>>>>> machine,
>>>>> Not exactly. It can only report on the behavior that the input
>>>>> finite string specifies.
>>>> Which is that other TM.
 Do you agree?

>>>>>> even simulate its complete execution. Or it can count something
>>>>>> simple like the number of states or the set of symbols that the
>>>>>> described Turing machine may write but not erase. But there are
>>>>>> questions that no Turing machine can answer from a description of
>>>>>> another Turing machine.
>>>>> All of the questions that a TM cannot answer are logical
>>>>> impossibilities
>>>> Not true. Some interesting questions are undecidable.
>>> It is a despicable lie that it even be called "undecidable". It is
>>> like no one can "make up their mind" about the square root of a dead
>>> rat.
>> You may dislike the term; it means there is no program that gives the
>> answer for every input.
> The term "undecidable input" incorrectly cites the decider as the source
> of the issue instead of rejecting incorrect input.
> The problem is that no program gives the answer whether a
> self-contradictory input is true or false because the correct answer is
> neither. It isn't that the decider "couldn't make up ts mind" it is that
> the input was invalid.
The counterexample input has a well-defined halting status determined
by the decider that it calls.

-- 
Am Fri, 28 Jun 2024 16:52:17 -0500 schrieb olcott:
Objectively I am a genius.