Path: news.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!xmission!news.snarked.org!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: mpsilvertone@yahoo.com (HarryLime)
Newsgroups: alt.arts.poetry.comments,rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: My Father's House / gjd (for new comments)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2025 08:50:23 +0000
Organization: novaBBS
Message-ID: <eed6032e287bda0350d8718ea92ee070@www.novabbs.com>
References: <97db0c3aeb33a7b97dc54cdfd5661e52@www.novabbs.com> <364e1f41f24b2570a2d6ce465ddb3e4d@www.novabbs.com> <4a4c22e8971494f4276397d499bef9f4@www.novabbs.com> <bb840bbeb41b9fc3ec3c565ab91a8b9c@www.novabbs.com> <0aa2409a4d4492cb92192f0206f2b152@www.novabbs.com> <036005486e41eec5a19f04c9e88e1e48@www.novabbs.com> <1cc0df73d929b7ac9cd7a8c02d7b31a3@www.novabbs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: i2pn2.org;
	logging-data="281285"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org";
	posting-account="9yNNWN6S3jCL2bQghupeZ7yt9QQF3aIiWb2guQimaIw";
User-Agent: Rocksolid Light
X-Rslight-Posting-User: e04a750cbe04de725ce24a46bcc3953c76236e3b
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0
X-Rslight-Site: $2y$10$OfMGwPRCDp1TC4CW0VS9iupR1whDSUrDbQu4Odm3cXk4ya0wE.nQW

On Sat, 15 Feb 2025 11:02:16 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 0:44:06 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 17:11:19 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 18:28:12 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 9 Feb 2025 14:12:44 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 20:15:36 +0000, HarryLime wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 19:31:54 +0000, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 4 Feb 2025 11:29:25 +0000, W.Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My Father's House
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is my father's house, although
>>>>>>>>> The man died thirteen years ago.
>>>>>>>>> They said it would be quite all right
>>>>>>>>> To take a drive to see it now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dad laid those grey foundation blocks
>>>>>>>>> And built the whole thing (from a box),
>>>>>>>>> Toiling after each full day's work.
>>>>>>>>> I helped, though I was only six.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Look, here's the back door I would use
>>>>>>>>> And here's where I'd remove my shoes
>>>>>>>>> To enter; there I'd leave my things
>>>>>>>>> And, when allowed, climb up these stairs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In this room I'd wash many a dish,
>>>>>>>>> Gaze out this window, and I'd wish
>>>>>>>>> To be so many other places.
>>>>>>>>> (Wishy-washy? Oh, I guess!)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Outside, the garden that he grew
>>>>>>>>> Where I would work the summers through,
>>>>>>>>> While watching my friends run and play
>>>>>>>>> Mysterious games I never knew.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That room's all changed; oh, where is it,
>>>>>>>>> The one chair I was let to sit?
>>>>>>>>> (For boys can be such filthy things.)
>>>>>>>>> Which, the corner where boys were put?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh ... down that hall there is a room
>>>>>>>>> Where I'd be shut (as in a tomb)
>>>>>>>>> After the meal, to make no noise,
>>>>>>>>> To read or play alone, and then
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lights out: in bed by nine each night,
>>>>>>>>> Some nights wanting to pee with fright,
>>>>>>>>> Face and pyjama bottoms down
>>>>>>>>> As for my father's belt I'd wait.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh, if I were a millionaire
>>>>>>>>> I'd buy my father's house, and there
>>>>>>>>> I'd build a bonfire, oh so high
>>>>>>>>> Its flames would light up all the air.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance
>>>>>>>>> from Logos and other logoi, 2021
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here it is, MFH.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for reposting this poem of mine, Will. While it's true that it
>>>>>>> has been discussed a lot over the years, it also true that at least one
>>>>>>> person wants to discuss it now; and this would be the appropriate place
>>>>>>> to move those comments, rather than leaving them scattered all over the
>>>>>>> group. So let's start with this one:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 3 Feb 2025 16:15:27 +0000, Michael Monkey Peabrain (MPP) aka
>>>>>>> "HarryLime" wrote:
>>>>>>>> You wrote a "mostly autobiographical" poem detailing the abuses you
>>>>>>>> suffered as a child, George.  And you're demonstrating your pathological
>>>>>>>> obsession with lying in your trio of denials, listed above.
>>>>>>> https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article.php?id=15801&group=rec.arts.poems
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HarryLiar has manufactured yet another fake quote; I have never called
>>>>>>> this poem "mostly autobiographical" or autobiographical in many ways. I
>>>>>>> have distinctly told him in the past that, while some of the speaker's
>>>>>>> memories were based on my own childhood experiences, not all of them
>>>>>>> were; I was using them in a work of creative fiction, not an
>>>>>>> autobiography of any kind. So he lied and made up a fake quote to
>>>>>>> support his lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't the time to go searching for the exact quote, but you had
>>>>>> initially maintained that it was "mostly autobiographical" or "mostly
>>>>>> based on your childhood," or similar words expressing the same thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you don't have time, get your NastyGoon to search for it. In this
>>>>> case I have to call your bullshit. You claimed the poem was
>>>>> "autobiographical", and I tried to explain to you the difference between
>>>>> creative literature and autobiography - repeatedly. You believe it's
>>>>> autobiographical because you said it was autobiographical, and for no
>>>>> other reason.
>>>>
>>>> George, George, George... no autobiography is 100% accurate.
>>>
>>> As I've told you before, I don't think the difference between creative
>>> literature and autobiography is merely one of "accuracy." The difference
>>> is that in the latter one is trying to be as accurate and comprehensive
>>> as possible: to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
>>> truth. Whereas in the former, one is selectively recreating an
>>> experience, using experiences that reinforce the story.
>>
>> Which has little to no bearing on one's reading a poem as as
>> psychoanalytical analysis of its author.  An autobiography would
>> invariably be colored by its author's emotional feelings, and
>> selectively limited by their choices as to what to include, and how to
>> present it if included.
>
> Df course a biographer is going to be selective; who would want to read
> a biography that included an account of every dump their subject took in
> his life? The difference is that a biographer limits (or should limit)
> what they include to what actually happened to the subject, while a
> creative work (which has a made-up subject (has no such restraint).

You're trying to change the terms, in order to change the meanings,
George.

How many times do I have to tell you that high school debate team
tactics are not going to work here?

You have stated, repeatedly, that you poem was based for the most part
on your own childhood.  The unnamed narrator may not be George Dance,
but the events he is describing in the flashback portion of the poem are
similar to your own childhood experiences.

Your poem is, therefore, at least semi-autobiographical.

A semi-autobiographical poem can still contain purely fictional elements
(such as the narrator's psychiatric care, his revisiting his childhood
home, etc.), but it is much more grounded in reality than your
description of "creative fiction," which "has a made-up subject" and "no
such restraint (as having to limit itself to what really happened to its
subject).


>> The only difference is that in an autobiography, the author is
>> (supposedly) attempting to be unbiased, where as in creative literature,
>> the author is allowing his biases to take center stage.
>
> No, that's not a difference. Biographies (including autobiographies) can
> reflect their author's prejudices; one wouldn't expect a biography of
> Hitler or Amin to be "unbiased" or try for equal balance. The
> difference, to repeat, is that a biographer is (or should be) limited to
> real, verifiable events - it's an account of what really happened -
> whereas a work of creative literature has no such restraint.

But I am not calling your poem autobiographical, George.  I am calling
it "semi-autobiographical."  There is a difference between the two, as
well.  An autobiographical poem would have to be based entirely on fact.
 A semi-autobiographical poem would only have to be partially based on
fact.  Since your poem is partially based on fact, it is a
semi-autobiographical work.

>> Both provide
>> glimpses into the author as a person; and some would argue that creative
>> literature provides a deeper glimpse as it is allowing the reader to
>> share in the author's emotional responses to their experiences (whereas
>> the former is merely relating said experiences, with the cold, clinical
>> detachment of a reporter).
>
> Sure, every literary work provides some glimpse into the author. That
> does not mean that every literary work is a "biography" of someone.

I haven't even so much as hinted that it would.

I'm saying that any fictional work is going to be partially
*autobiographical.*  "The Simple Man" is a fictional story that I wrote
that is based on a dream that I had.  Since I had the dream, the story
provides the reader with a glimpse into my subconscious.  "Beyond the
Veil" is also partially autobiographical, in that the speaker's
drug-induced hallucinations are based upon my own.  Both stories are
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========